TD8 issues, somewhat urgent ["backup NG!"]

[ignarukih]

Hi all,

I'm a once-or twice weekly gigging drummer having pretty serious trouble with my TD8. I use my TD8KV kit for all my gigs and we do covers which amounts to 3 hours of solid playing per gig twice a week. I'm a reasonably hard hitter, but not to the point of alarming other Roland owners who've seen me play.

I was using it normally one day, and the sound started cutting out completely about every five minutes, occasionally accompanied by a blank display and/or a really loud grinding noise. Turning it off and on would either make it return to normal, or give the following message:

"backup NG! execute factory reset all!"

Here I'd be prompted to execute (f3) which I did. Then the kit would factory reset and behave normally, but 5 minutes later the problem recurred in one of its iterations (see above).

I sent it back to the store I got it from. They sent it to Auckland (= big shipping costs) and after doing a 'soak test' (where they leave it on for a day and play it on and off throughout) and giving it an internal inspection, the technician couldn't find a problem.

I started using it again and couldn't find the problem either which was great. It was working totally fine for about a month.

Then last night I was playing a gig, and the bulb in a light which was sharing a wall socket with all of our stage equipment blew, and all the onstage power went off. The bar reset the power and we went on playing, but the problem mentioned above came back. My module was failing halfway through every song pretty much, and it has been ever since (I've played it in 2 places afterwards). It started showing gibberish pixels across the left side of the screen once, and when turned off and on again, the screen sometimes just came up blank.

I was using it again at band practice today, and it was failing pretty regularly, but I saw that the mount of the left arm (which the hi hat and module are mounted to) was sitting right on top one of the middle arms' mounts, so I guessed the vibration transmitted across by the centre arm when I played the rack toms was playing havoc with the module. Separating the left and centre arms seemed to fix the problem completely.

But I've gotten home, and the problem is the same but more regular.

Do you folks have any idea what this problem is? Apologies for the epic read.

[SuperPuss]

That sounds like a dry solder joint inside the unit to me. I am a qualified tech and this is the number one cause of intermittent faults by far. It is usually a relatively easy thing to fix as long as the solder joint in question isn't too elusive to find (generally they are pretty easy to locate).

A dry solder joint (also referred to as a cold solder joint) is a tech term for a solder connection that has a hairline crack and creates an intermittent connection between the PCB and the component lead. They are generally created either by mechanical vibration or stress or heat or sometimes a combination of both.

[ignarukih]

Thanks SuperPuss, you're some kind of legend... So you think it's inside the module, and can't be the fault of any of my external leads?

[SuperPuss]

You're welcome ignarukih
I'm not sure if the TD8 has an external power supply or not (wall wart or line lump) but if so, it could be in that or the cable connecting it to the module. Another common place for devices with external power supplies to develop dry joints is on the power connector joints (where it is soldered to the PCB) in the module. This is common because of the mechanical stress of constant plugging in and unplugging and is easily fixed.

Something else to try is to power up your TD8 and give it a gentle twist (hold each side in your hands and gently twist it just a little). You can also try knocking on the case of the TD8 with your knuckles (don't thump it!!!).
These tests can often stimulate the fault if it is a dry solder joint. Seriously, these are often the first tests a repair tech will take on a product with a suspected dry joint, followed by taking the unit apart and tapping the PCB with the back end of a screwdriver!! I kid you not!

[BarT]

Did it get a new battery during the servicing?

Although you may have other power problems, that "backup NG! execute factory reset all!" message is the standard error for a completely drained battery; and battery replacement is the only resolution documented on Page 174 of the TD-8 manual: "Data in the TD-8’s memory may be corrupted.
The TD-8’s internal backup battery (the battery used for saving User memory data) is fully drained; internal data has been lost. Contact your dealer or a nearby Roland service center to have the battery replaced. Follow the messages appearing on the screen to carry out Factory Reset; you will then be able to use the unit temporarily."

Battery problems can become more pronounced if the module is left unplugged for some time, because battery power is used when not connected to AC (but not if just switched off at the module).


Bruce

[ignarukih]

Thanks, you two. It appears that the tech here wasn't very thorough. I might go to my outlet and tell them to send it up and investigate for both of those faults. I did tell the guy in the shop that the issue could be a battery fault (I'd been given that advice earlier too) so they should have checked that. If they haven't, I'm not too happy to pay to have it sent from here (Wellington, NZ) to the tech Auckland again, which is pretty expensive.

[ignarukih]

Battery problems can become more pronounced if the module is left unplugged for some time, because battery power is used when not connected to AC (but not if just switched off at the module).

I would occasionally leave the module unplugged for a week at a time (gig to gig), and at other times, just a day or two between gigging and when I can be bothered to set it up again for practicing. Does that constitute 'some time'?

Cheers!

[BarT]

I would occasionally leave the module unplugged for a week at a time (gig to gig), and at other times, just a day or two between gigging and when I can be bothered to set it up again for practicing. Does that constitute 'some time'?

Cheers!

I think having the module unplugged for a week at a time would certainly drain the battery quicker. In your situation it may be worth buying a new battery (CR2032), as they're easily available in many places, and inserting it yourself to see if it alleviates the problem.


Bruce

[SuperPuss]

Never thought of the battery issue but I must agree with Bruce. Flat batteries can do weird things and it is simple enough to find out if it is the cause of all your symptoms.

[ignarukih]

Thanks again to both of you. I got in touch with the tech who worked on my module today. He actually did check the module for both the issues you two raised, and ran a soak test for 3 days solid. No dry solder joints apparently and according to him, my battery shouldn't be at fault because I didn't get a warning message and it's only 5 years old. Either way, I'm going to replace the adaptor and the internal battery and see how I go. <hunts for a TD8 battery replacement tutorial> In the meantime it's down to borrowing modules just in case...

[zdavesf]

After reading your first post my first thoughts were to replace the backup battery, check cold solder joints and try a new wall wart (my wall wart on my TD-8 just blew up last week )... I too am Electronics tech working in the Audio electronics field and cold solder joints are way too common. good luck and keep us posted. As for checking the solder joints start by looking around where the wall wart plugs into the unit.

Dave

[ignarukih]

Aha ... it never ends!

Well, the problem may well be the adaptor. I got to try a replacement roland adaptor which appears to have solved my problem. Unfortunately it was off an in-store keyboard so I have to wait til they order a new one in. <sigh> It's okay, I can borrow modules til then.

It also turns out that the CY-5 which was auto-choking (the only thing that makes it behave normally is if you hold the cymbal firmly while playing it) wasn't fixed by the tech in Auckland!

It auto-chokes almost 100% of the time when plugged into my module, and about... 10% of the time or less when attached to the in-store TD12.

Luckily it's still under warranty, but does anyone know why this is/does this shed any light on my module/adaptor troubles?

I guess I am a hard hitter, that may be the problem. Need to develop my 'glancing blows'.

Thanks all!

[BarT]

I like the neat way you've solved your main problem, so decided to slip in a new one (to us)!

The CY-5 auto-choking could be internal rubber debris as you say you'e a hard hitter. This has happened to some people with most other CY models, but I think you're the first to beat a CY-5 into submission. If so, the only answer is internal cleaning by prising off the rubber cover.

But if the CY-5 behaves differently on your module and the store module perhaps it's not a physical pad problem at all. If it only chokes when playing other pads it could just be that the Crosstalk Cancel setting for the CY-5 is too high. You may need to describe how and when it happens.


Bruce

[zdavesf]

You don't need an official Roland power supply. As long as you match the specs you should be ok. I believe the TD-8 is 9VDC (negative center i believe) and 650mA. To translate that you want 9VDC power supply (wall wart) with the ground on the center pin and can handle at least 650mA (a higher current rating will not hurt anything, if its lower you can run into troubles.)
I have been running a non-Roland wall wart for over a month and its all been good. Good Luck

Dave