Midi Question

[PGann]

Am trying to trigger TD-8 via midi using SPD-20's pads and extra inputs as an add-on to my regular kit. When you hit the SPD-20 pads they "sound" the TD-8 module, but it only registers on the TD-8's "list/edit" screen when the midi note numbers match (or correspond to) those that are also factory assigned to the TD-8's trigger (pad)inputs. These sounds can be edited just like the ones for the pads that are plugged directly into the TD-8, but editing them also changes the corresponding sounds for those pads with the same midi numbers that are plugged directly into the TD-8. Bottom line, great for editing the midi trigger pads (very easy), but it also totally screws-up (edits) all the sounds on your regular kit.

On the other hand, all the "non-corresponding" midi numbers from the SPD-20 also "sound" the TD-8 module, but they do not register at all on the TD-8's "list/edit" screen. So, I'm not sure these can be edited at all (?).

So what gives? Am I missing something? Do you really have to get out the midi list from the back of the manual (that list all the sounds with their corresponding midi note numbers) everytime you want to set-up a midi trigger? ... and also make sure you don't use a note number that's also assigned to one of your regular kit's pads? And if this is true, how in the world do you edit these if you can't pull them up on the edit screen.

Surely I'm missing something here??? The manual is of no use at all in trying to figure this out. Can someone enlighten me on this?

[jg52]

Hi PGann,

I'll try to answer your questions from the standpoint of the TD10 with the expansion board. I think the editing is very similar.

Plug all your pads into the TD8. Each pad has a midi note number: snare 38, kick 36, hihat 46, etc. Jot down all the note numbers. Now assign different note numbers to all the SPD-20 pads and the pads plugged into the SPD-20. In my experience, what numbers you assign in midi (for percussion) is not as important as the fact that they're different than those used in the TD 10/8.

Editing the midi sounds (everything coming from the SPD-20) is done in the percussion screen. You will not get V-Edit in midi as long as you assign different note numbers than the inputs of the TD-10/8. However, you will get to edit volume, pan, pitch, decay, ambience and effects (in the TD-10).

You're absolutely right about the same note number on two inputs. You will be editing both inputs together: change one you change them both. That's why you assign different numbers to everything.

I hope this is clear. Really tried to keep it short and sweet.

If anyone finds any errors, please correct me. I'm certainly no midi genius.

Hope this helps.

Jay

One last thing. In my situation, Trapkat and TD10 with the TDW-1, when I change drum sets on the 10, the the other midi triggers stay the same. So far, I haven't found a way around this.



[This message has been edited by jg52 (edited September 16, 2000).]

[PGann]

Jay,

Thanks for the reply. I'm wondering if the TD-8 and TD-10 may work different here. When I use midi notes that match those assigned to the TD-8's pads, edit works exactly the same as when you edit sounds for the regular pads. When I assign different note numbers than those of the TD-8's pads, I get the "right sounds" that are listed in the midi note number chart in the back of the manual, but I can't pull up any screen on the TD-8 that even hints of edit capabilities for these particular midi triggered sounds.

So, either something's different here between the way the TD-8 and TD-10 work in midi or I'm still missing something somewhere.

What I'm doing for now is using the "unused" rims of the cymbals, toms and hat triggers. This gives me "7" midi triggers from my SPD-20 that will edit (including V-edit) exactly like the regular pads tied directly to the TD-8... which is great. And editing these does not change anything on any of the other pads because the rims are not being used otherwise (I use Hart pads, and they don't have the rim triggers like the Roland pads).
But, I'd sure like to figure out if it's possible to have any edit capability using those "other" midi notes to trigger the TD-8 from the remaining SPD-20 triggers... and have the "sound name" pop-up on the TD-8's display so I pick the sounds out of the module and not out of the back of the manual and be able to edit them to any degree.

You mentioned editing from the "percussion screen" in the TD-10. On the TD-8, normal edits are done through [F1]"INST>LIST/EDIT". The only reference to "percussion" I've found with the TD-8 is with the pattern sequencer. Though I don't use this, I went through every screen available and still did not find any that allowed editing of my "other" midi note triggers. So either the TD-8 does not have a screen like you're describing or I just have not been able to find it.

I still won't pretend to know anything about midi, but I just can't imagine the value of being able to trigger a sound by midi if you can't get it to register on the TD-8 module in some fashion and edit it. So, I think either I'm missing something or Roland missed something.

Any further enlightenment you might give would be appreciated.

[jg52]

PGann,

Here's the way to access the percussion editing in the TD-10:
Kit
F2 (Function)
F1 (Prcgrp)
F2 (Edit).
Hit a pad or pad plugged into the SPD-20 and the edit screen for that pad will appear on the TD-10 screen. If this doesn't follow on the TD-8, then I was wrong. Editing the TD-10 and the TD-8 is not similar for this function.

There must be someone in this group who uses a TD-8 in a similar configuration to yours. They'll have to take the ball from here. Sorry.

Jay

[PGann]

Thanks guys. I'll keep at it. I thought several times I had it, only to find that I was back on a midi number that's assigned to the regular kit... excitement then major let down. I'm sure once I hit on the right combination it'll all be clearer. But right now, the manual has failed to make any of this clear to me.

[PGann]

O.K., got it. This appears to be the same deal Jay was talking about with the TD-10... you just get there a little different. Part of what was throwing me off was the fact that this is all in the sequencer pattern section of the manual... not the midi section. That probably makes perfect sense to somebody... just not me. I had looked at that section in the manual, but just failed to make the connection with what I was trying to do.

Can't say I'm particularly thrilled with the way it all works. Wish it all worked the way it does with the "kit assigned" midi note numbers... but, oh well. Anyway, thanks again guys for getting me there.

O.K., so the only way you can edit is to copy a "preset group" to a "user group"... right? And once they're edited here, they are also edited in the preset group as well? Am I also right in thinking that you can only midi trigger sounds from only one percussion group at a time with the SPD-20? In other words, if you've got two sounds you want to midi trigger, but they're in two different percussion groups, you can't do both?... that is, you've got to pick sounds that are in the same group?

[MisterE]

This discussion is starting to get to the root of the matter. I use both a TD-8 and a TD-10/expanded with a drumKat and a trapKat. The Roland sound modules do not work the same when it comes to MIDI. And yes, I would like to combine the best features from each module because the "can't do" features in each are a real problem.

Both units play the Percussion sets when MIDI data is received via the MIDI In connectors. That's where the units stop functioning the same when it comes to MIDI.

I have tried to arrange the differences between the units by function below. For reference, I will use the term "pad" to mean those Roland PD type drum pad devices plugged directly into the sound module and the term "Kat" to mean any external MIDI controller plugged into the MIDI In ports of the TD-10 or TD-8.

Percussion Kits:
TD-10: Has 4 percussion sets, all editable, sort of. We'll get to this later.
TD-8: Has 12 Percussion sets, 10 fixed and 2 that you can change.

Changing sounds in the Percussion sets:
TD-10: You cannot change the "reserved" MIDI note numbers. These are fixed for the drum kit sounds played from the pads.
TD-8: Does not have this limitation due to two different parameters. First, the Channel 10 priority setting. In case of a conflict, the note number assigned to the drum kit's pad sound will be used and not the sound you re-assigned to the note number for the Kat. Second, the percussion sets, as a group, can be assigned to a different MIDI Channel than the internal kits. The individual percussion sets can be selected by sending different program change numbers. These two parameters allow you to have your drum kit and percussion set play different sounds from the pad versus the Kat while assigned to the same note number. This means you have many note numbers to assign sounds to within percussion sets 11 and 12. (The TD-10 greatly needs this functionality.)

Note Chase:
A very thoughtful feature, if it worked correctly!
TD-10: It sort of works if you are on the proper percussion set edit screen, deep within "menu hell." You hit the Kat and the screen jumps to that sound. Edit away. Beautiful.
TD-8: I cannot get note chase to work at all, anywhere, on any screen, when coming in through MIDI using a Kat. And YES Roland, I have the note chase feature turned on.

Automatic changing of your Kat sounds:
(Not that you want this to happen!)
TD-8: Different sequenced patterns and songs use different preset percussion sets, 1 through 10. So what you say? Well if you selected and are playing percussion set 11 through MIDI and start a sequence pattern, the percussion set assigned to that pattern is now automatically selected. If percussion set 3, a preset, is assigned to that pattern you are now playing those sounds on the Kat through MIDI. Bad News!!! All this assignment of percussion sets 1 to 10 to patterns is preset and non-changeable.
TD-10: All of the kits are assigned to percussion set 1 unless you change it. (And you can. Which is good, I think.) This means your Kat sounds do not change where it is assigned to a non-reserved drum kit sound note number. If you have assigned a Kat sound to a reserved drum kit sound, as you change drum kits, the Kat sound will change accordingly. Be careful.

Sound Shaping:
In general the percussion set sounds have less sound control settings available to edit than the drum kit sounds. The TD-10 however has more parameters to edit than the TD-8.

Well I hope this helps, if not making more confusion. I wish Roland would incorporate the best of these features into a future software release.

Thanks.....MisterE

[jg52]

Hi Mister E,

I also use a Trapkat and a TD10ex. No matter what I do I can't get full hihat function. I get open, closed, closing and splash. No way can I access the sounds from closed to open. My hihat reacts just like the hihat into a D4. I usually use a HatKat pedal but I also occasionally use an FD-7 with the same result. Do you get continuous controller hihat with your setup? If you do please explain how you set it up. You can e-mail me if you'd like to. Thanks.

Jay

[MisterE]

jg52,

Sorry I haven't posted an answer to this yet. My trapKat was out of commission for a while (a long story).

So far, I had not used my TD-10 with the trapKat, but now with the TDW-1 installed I plan on using them together. So help me get started with some past history.

1. Was continuous controller 4 operating normally between your trapKat and TD-10 before the TDW-1 upgrade?
2. Did you change any settings in the trapKat prior to the TDW-1 upgrade?
3. Is your TD-10exp set to transmit MIDI note information? In other words are the Rx/Tx switches set to ON?
4. Do the note numbers and MIDI channel numbers for the hihat match between your trapKat and TD-10exp?
5. What software version is in your trapKat, chip number and letter?

I personally would like to resolve this ASAP since I know that Alternate Mode, the current manufacturer of KAT products, has received several calls concerning this issue recently.

Please post the answers here and I will try my best to get to the bottom of this....MisterE

[jg52]

Mister E,

Sorry I took this long. Had to play out of town and just got back and set up my stuff.

My Trapkat is version V 2.0L. The hat number is 46 on both the TD10 and Trapkat. RX/TX are both on. Nothing was changed on the Trapkat before the upgrade of the TD10. The continuous function worked before the upgrade but, the half open sound (pedal range) was tiny and very hard to hold.

The end result is that my Hat pedal functions as an on/off(closed/open) switch. However, this is tolerable because, with the TDW-1, I can assign a half open sound to another pad.

It seems that Roland, proprietary as always, has tinkered with the hat function and made the continuous hat feature impossible with my setup. Hope you can figure out a work-around.

Good luck, Jay

[MisterE]

BUG Alert!!

I finally got my trapKat back in circulation. You are correct, the TD-10 with the TDW-1 expansion card installed does not process MIDI HiHat information properly. In particular, the closed sound from the pedal is not being processed by the sound module. This is a BUG in the expansion card software.

I called this into Roland's Technical support today. I spoke the DAN, who had not heard of this problem. He mentioned it would be a while before he got back to me. So for now, anyone wishing to use MIDI with a TD-10exp module cannot do so.

As a collective community, I would highly recommend that we ALL put a call into Roland on this issue, because the chance of this being the only problem is unlikely. As future upgrades and patches come our way we definitely want a fast response to software bugs.

PLEASE CALL 1-323-890-3743

Thanks…..MisterE

[e-drummer]

I just recorded myself playing the hi hat with the fd7 to midi and the play back seems fine.
What setting is the "pedal data thin" on as this can sometimes cause problems.
I find its best to have this in the off position.

Some serious scare mongering going on here, check out the bottom of page 18 in the TDW-1 manual.

[This message has been edited by e-drummer (edited December 04, 2000).]

[jg52]

e-drummer,

Are you getting a different sound between closed and open? The "slosh" sound? I can't get it with a Trapkat and TD-10ex. I've tried every combination I can think of and all I get is closed, open, closing and splash. I've read the manual, especially the part dealing with hihat function. Simply does not work. The hihat works simply as an on/off switch.

If you have any ideas to fix the problem, I'd sure appreciate some help. Thanks.

Jay

[e-drummer]

I`m going to have to eat my words here.
It seems that the TD10 with the TDW-1 no longer sends out CC4 midi data for the HH foot control.
But instead you get a setting that basically does nothing more than change the point of a hi hat becoming open as far as the midi note goes.
When I tested before my last post I just stomped on the pedal and played a jazz rythhm on the hi hat and played it back and it worked fine.
So I thought i`d mess about with the border note setting and while recording I noticed that the midi input led`s in cubase where not lit up like a christmas tree like they used to be when you touch the hi hat pedal,
due to the huge amount of data that CC4 sends.
It does seem to me though that the onboard sequencer is still responding to the CC4 data.
So I am really sorry if I gave you any false hope but it seems that yourself and MisterE are correct although I would suspect that roland will say this is intentional.

Ive remove my post`s from the other threads to save myself anymore embarressment.


[This message has been edited by e-drummer (edited December 04, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by e-drummer (edited December 04, 2000).]

[jg52]

Whew! I was beginning to think I just wasn't smart enough to figure it out. Thanks for a definitive answer.

Jay