PD140DS rim triggered without touching the rim

[JoeGoodson]

Alright guys, here is part of the email trail: (i am only omitting names for privacy, mostly their)

ROLAND:


Hi Giuseppe,

Thank you for sourcing the original proof of purchase, very helpful.

However, I'm very sorry to say that the 12 month warranty on your PD-140DS has unfortunately expired.

Therefore I would advise speaking to one of our trusted service partners to discuss a repair.

You can find a list of local service engineers via the following link - UK Freelance Engineer List - Google My Maps

I'm very sorry for the bad news.

Kind regards


ME:

Thanks for your email.
I have to say this is rather unfair as although the warranty may have expired, this was obviously defective from the factory. Skye has barely played the kit and may not be familiar with such an issue in order to recognise it and action the warranty, which I did instead.

I expect this to apply for anything that the customer may have created but not for something that was defective since it came out of the factory, which I believe it’s the case. I have owned Roland vdrums since 2000’s and I feel like Roland should still honour the warranty considering this is now a known issue. Should Roland verify that we, customers, caused the issue then I am happy to take it to a retailer but again, due to the fact this may very well be defective from the factory, I expect Roland to value its customers and do not stick to the book rules when something like this happens.

Regards,
Giuseppe


ROLAND:

Hi Giuseppe,

I'm very sorry to hear you feel this way.

However, it is irrelevant as to what the original owner did or didn't do with regards to the fault you have described and demonstrated.

There is no way of knowing when or how this fault occurred. But I'm sorry to say that the fact still remains that your PD-140DS is no longer in warranty.

I appreciate that this is disappointing to hear, but in order to maintain fairness to all of our customers we must adhere to our policies and processes.

I agree and sympathise that you have been very unlucky for this to happen.

Please feel free to speak to a local service engineer who will be able to get this repaired for you.

UK Freelance Engineer List - Google My Maps


and to finish, ME:

Thanks for your email.
As per Consumer Rights Act 2015, I will request a specialist to inspect my snare and should this be declared faulty from the beginning, or belong to a series of similar claims for faulty PD-140D, I will use the right to appeal and expect Roland to stick to what the legislation is in UK.

I also note that on your website, Roland UK claims the warranty on all products is “Two years” from point of purchase and not one year. I am therefore very confused why you mention the one year warranty, and if that is the case, your website is therefore misleading.

A picture of the website stating that is enclosed.



Apologies for the long response but i am really confused. On their website they state every Roland product gets 2 year warranty and i am told my snare is out of warranty being over a year old???

[ReckonSiler]

I also note that on your website, Roland UK claims the warranty on all products is “Two years” from point of purchase and not one year. I am therefore very confused why you mention the one year warranty, and if that is the case, your website is therefore misleading.

Can't believe I forgot to mention that because I had looked up Roland's warranty previously when I replied to (I think) Bangkok drums who mentioned a cymbal being just out of warranty a little over one year after purchase. Turns out Roland Thailand offers only one year warranty. Pathetic.

However this might not help you in the end, it's possible they changed the warranty from 1 year to 2 years on 01/05/21 (see second link below) so if that snare was bought before then you might only get 1 year warranty if that was they offered prior to 01/05/21.


https://www.roland.com/uk/warranty/?lang=en-GB
Two-Year Warranty on all other products
Also shows a picture of a vdrum kit with a big 2 year warranty sign. However this page doesn't show up on archive.org until May 19, 2021.


and this is relevant as well, although the page itself says "Valid from 01/05/21" (and it hasn't been archived on archive.org at all so it appears to be new as well):

https://www.roland.com/uk/warranty/terms/
Drum Pads and Cymbals
2–Year Warranty

[JoeGoodson]

Can't believe I forgot to mention that because I had looked up Roland's warranty previously when I replied to (I think) Bangkok drums who mentioned a cymbal being just out of warranty a little over one year after purchase. Turns out Roland Thailand offers only one year warranty. Pathetic.

However this might not help you in the end, it's possible they changed the warranty from 1 year to 2 years on 01/05/21 (see second link below) so if that snare was bought before then you might only get 1 year warranty if that was they offered prior to 01/05/21.


https://www.roland.com/uk/warranty/?lang=en-GB
Two-Year Warranty on all other products
Also shows a picture of a vdrum kit with a big 2 year warranty sign. However this page doesn't show up on archive.org until May 19, 2021.


and this is relevant as well, although the page itself says "Valid from 01/05/21" (and it hasn't been archived on archive.org at all so it appears to be new as well):

https://www.roland.com/uk/warranty/terms/
Drum Pads and Cymbals
2–Year Warranty

And that is a good point. They will probably come back that before that date it was only one year, or that if the product hasn't been registered it only gets one year warranty (the lady who owned the kit before probably never registered the snare).

I wonder if i still have any right to appeal via consumer act 2015. I just find it unreasonable for them to turn down such a common issue. Their snares are faulty, end of the story. No way around it and not the consumer's fault. Independently what the state of that specific part is, it needs replacing as sold to the customer not fit for purpose.

I just can't believe they can get away with it so easily.

[ReckonSiler]

or that if the product hasn't been registered it only gets one year warranty (the lady who owned the kit before probably never registered the snare).

I doubt that would be the issue but I cannot be sure.

I wonder if i still have any right to appeal via consumer act 2015.

Probably not, see below. You have an agreement (sales transaction) with her, she has an agreement (sales transaction) with the shop. Neither you or her have any direct agreement (transaction) with Roland.

I just find it unreasonable for them to turn down such a common issue.

If it can be proven that it's a (very) common problem that is due to some design or manufacturing fault, maybe that would change matters and you could hold Roland liable. Or maybe not, hard to say and possibly even harder to enforce. I think your best chance is to ask her to act on your behalf:

https://www.catalystlaw.co.uk/blog/c...ond-hand-goods

Consumer Rights and private sellers.

If you purchase items from a private seller via a web advertisement, local newspaper ad or car boot sale it is important to be aware that you don't have any consumer rights. For the Consumer Rights Act to apply you need to be an individual making a purchase from a business.

If you do buy a second-hand item from a private individual it only has to match any advertised description. This limited protection falls under The Misrepresentation Act for when an untrue fact or statement is made by the seller to convince a buyer to make a purchase.

A private seller isn't under any obligation to tell you about any faults or defects, and there's no requirement for the item to be of satisfactory quality or suitable for any specific purpose.

So, as you may have heard, purchasing from a private seller is a matter of 'buyer beware'. You should check the product thoroughly to ensure you are 100% happy before buying it.

It seems you might be entirely dependent on her goodwill. She has rights (in relation to the shop she bought it from, not Roland) and in principle it should not cost her anything but some time to enforce them. Maybe she could even authorize you to handle this in her name so to speak, I don't know.

it needs replacing as sold to the customer not fit for purpose.

But ultimately the person or company that sold it to you is responsible, not some seller further upstream (even though referring to the manufacturer as 'some seller' seems rather odd). At least that's how it works over here (EU).

Let me add this, just to be safe: I'm not a lawyer, the above does not constitute legal advice

[JoeGoodson]

I doubt that would be the issue but I cannot be sure.



Probably not, see below. You have an agreement (sales transaction) with her, she has an agreement (sales transaction) with the shop. Neither you or her have any direct agreement (transaction) with Roland.



If it can be proven that it's a (very) common problem that is due to some design or manufacturing fault, maybe that would change matters and you could hold Roland liable. Or maybe not, hard to say and possibly even harder to enforce. I think your best chance is to ask her to act on your behalf:

https://www.catalystlaw.co.uk/blog/c...ond-hand-goods
[LEFT][B]

It seems you might be entirely dependent on her goodwill. She has rights (in relation to the shop she bought it from, not Roland) and in principle it should not cost her anything but some time to enforce them. Maybe she could even authorize you to handle this in her name so to speak, I don't know.



But ultimately the person or company that sold it to you is responsible, not some seller further upstream (even though referring to the manufacturer as 'some seller' seems rather odd). At least that's how it works over here (EU).

Let me add this, just to be safe: I'm not a lawyer, the above does not constitute legal advice

Not at all, i actually do appreciate your comments and realistically, you could be totally right. I recon the lady i bought the digital upgrade pack will submit the claim but it still depends what the warranty status is, and if reaching out to the vendor is even an option.

[ReckonSiler]

it still depends what the warranty status is

Maybe it's just semantics but it should not depend on being in or out of warranty, see what mkok wrote:

Yes you do. Uk consumer law also states that things should have a reasonable lifetime before failure. Look it up as I have used this twice now. I didn’t get a full refund but got part refund and that was stuff over two year old (one was a tv and another a washer) the snare should definitely last more than a year.

and if reaching out to the vendor is even an option.

It is for the first owner. A £600+ snaredrum pad should certainly be expected to be fully functional for longer than one or two years, otherwise absolutely nobody would buy it. Out of warranty or not, I believe she should be able to get some compensation from the retailer (provided there are no signs of physical damage caused by external forces or other abuse of course). Maybe if the vendor isn't willing she can try go through some (web)shop trust association (if the vendor is a member of one) or some consumer protection agency or whatever? Small claims court? I have no idea what is possible in the UK.

Good luck and let us know how you fare.

[mkok]

So if you didn’t purchase it or register it then I think the previous owner would have to do this for you. Firstly go back to the vendor and quote them the consumer goods act about a reasonable length of time. It’s worth looking up the act. I actually spoke to trading standards who to,d me to quote this and write a letter. As it was mine was a big uk white goods company and I called them direct. They argued that they would test it and charge me to do so. After a few emails to head office and mention of social media they said they would do it for nothing. It took about 2 mins to test the television. I only got about half the money back after about 2.5 years.

if there a decent company then they will do something for you. After that report them to trading standards who will look into it. I also had a aluminium front door that the coating started to come off after about three years. I went back and forth with the company and they said the third party supplier only gave a years warranty. This went on for a few months then I noticed they had a website and we’re doing quite well in the prestige doors and windows market. All my next email had to do was mention using social media and the door was replaced.

Try being nice first though

[JoeGoodson]

Alright guys, the saga continues. This time a team leader responded me and the outcome is the same. They won't honour any warranty and for me this is the end of me giving business to Roland. I wasn't expecting them to blindly repair the snare out of warranty, but to at least offer an inspection as again, this could have been a factory defect and despite the warranty being expired or independently when the consumer may have realised the possible fault, this still doesn't change the fact that the snare may have been sold not fit for purpose.


conversation below:

ROLAND

Thank you for your ticket that has been passed to me for my attention as customer service team leader.

I am so sorry that you feel this way.

However, Huw is correct, there is absolutely no way that anyone can deem when a fault manifested itself just from looking at it.

I also have to agree with Huw that the fault is completely irrelevant as the unit is out of warranty.

Please also allow me to point out that when the unit was purchased by the original owner our new pan-European warranty was not in place. Our pan-European warranty commenced in May 2021.

Prior to May 2021 all accessories, cymbals & pads had a 12 month warranty. Your kit was originally purchased 10th June 2020 and your PD-140DS warranty expired 10th June 2021.

Therefore I hope you can understand why we are unable to repair your PD-140DS under warranty when the warranty expired 6 months ago.

I trust I have clarified the situation for you.





Kind regards


ME

Thanks for your email and getting back to me.
This is a big let down for me. I work for a well known car manufacturer and I am familiar with warranties and recalls.
If we sell a vehicle to our customers and we, later on, are made aware that that specific vehicle may be affected from a factory defect, independently from when the customer claims the help of the warranty, we fix it for the customer as he shouldn’t have to deal with something that came faulty from the manufacturer.

I am surprised how Roland is handling this matter. Without digging our heads in the sand, this is now a common issue for a batch of defective PD-140 DS.

A fair assessment from Roland would be to recall the snare independently from the warranty and verify the fault wasn’t caused from the user. Your warranty terms and changes against a possible factory defective snare are irrelevant. You are still liable to verify that that product sold wasn’t faulty and therefore not fit for purpose at point of sale.

Should instead, after an inspection, be verified that this was caused from the consumer, then you have all the rights to reject any form of warranty or repair, and make the customer liable for it.

We are not occasional Roland users, we have owned several kits and spent probably over £70.000 in Vdrums over the years and this is a big let down.

My friend Skye who purchased the kit that included the Digital snare, did not have the ability and knowledge to realise the snare was misbehaving.

There are several reports of the exactly same fault online and there is no doubt this is the same kind of issue.

I have posted this matter on a popular electronic drums forum and people are awaiting an outcome for this story. It is sad to see how most of them believe this will be handled from Roland and even reassured this would without hesitation be inspected, but I held from delivering the bad news as I wanted to trust some options would have been offered. I am not after any form of refund or compensation, just a working snare as it should when sold.

Please let me know if you believe this won’t be looked into any further and I will update my fellow e-drummers in our social media and online community, as I feel the obligation to let them know and be aware of the outcome should they be in a similar situation.

Pointless to say I will be selling all my Roland gear and take my business somewhere else, especially when another popular brand ended up in a similar situation with one of their flagship modules and accepted out of warranty inspections and repair, gaining and securing future business.

Regards,

[IPLaw]

It’s not new… but becoming more frequent.

I wonder if it is becoming more frequent because of a setting in the TD-50X and not in the TD-50. I don’t recall having the issue with the TD-27 and that is the only thing that changed. Furthermore, the setting for the Rim/Trigger apparently solved the issue…just some thoughts.

[Alan VEX]

How much of an adjustment did it take, though? If it was only 5-10, it’s probably just sensitive. One guy said he had to change it about 30. That’s pretty insane, and just too much risk long term for my tastes. If it was within warranty, I’d have them repair or replace it. YMMV

[Chris K]

If I had this issue include digital ride and hihat I would be piss off and upload video on YT, about [email protected] issue on Roland with most expensive gear on the market.

[IPLaw]

How much of an adjustment did it take, though? If it was only 5-10, it’s probably just sensitive. One guy said he had to change it about 30. That’s pretty insane, and just too much risk long term for my tastes. If it was within warranty, I’d have them repair or replace it. YMMV

I changed it from the default setting of 8 to 12 as teb335 suggested and it worked...so just 4. The suspicious thing about it is that 2 units had the same exact problem that were purchased 1 year apart.

[JoeGoodson]

guys, just a quick update: following my last email, the team leader asked my availability for a phone call. My hopes are not too high but never say never.

[JoeGoodson]

Following up my last response, Roland managed to keep me with the brand so a happy ending with this one!

[ReckonSiler]

Awesome, congrats!

Are you at liberty to share what solution they offered?

It's great this was resolved in the end, although I feel it should not have required such effort and perseverance on your part. Manufacturers should stand behind their products in my opinion, especially if you pay top dollar (or Euro) for a premium brand and product.