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Questions about TD-30 Hi-Hat Midi-Mappings

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  • Questions about TD-30 Hi-Hat Midi-Mappings

    Pardon the long post, but I want to be as clear as possible. My question is at the end of the details below.

    I'm implementing into my setup a recent TD-30 and a VH-11 Hi-Hat. I use a rather complicated environment setup which includes many different hardware machines (see my signature) as well as drum software (Superior 2 and 3, EZDrummer, BFD, etc.) I remap notes into and out of Logic Pro, to maintain a clean piano-roll which accommodates all my setups on many of the same notes and spacing. With the addition of the TD-30 I noticed something a bit odd. The Hi-Hat note-mappings in the Unit are listed on its setup screen as follows:

    Open (Bow) A#2(46)
    Closed (Bow) F#2(42)
    Foot G#2(44)

    Open (Rim) D1(26)
    Closed (Rim) A#0(22)
    Foot G#2(44)

    I'll just use the note-numbers from here onward, and not include the Foot either...

    Page 150 of the User Manual Lists the above as:

    46 = Open HH (Bow)
    42 = Closed HH (Bow)
    26 = Open HH Rim (Edge)
    22 = Closed HH Rim (Edge)

    Playing those notes directly into the TD-30 from a Midi Keyboard produces the correct sounds, as per their names.

    The problem is that if I view, on a Midi Monitor, the incoming notes to Logic as the Hi-Hat is struck with a stick, I see the following:

    Striking the Bow with the Pedal Opened (CC4 at 0) = 46, and I hear the right sound, Open Bow.

    Striking the Edge with the Pedal Opened (CC4 at 0) = 26, and I hear the right sound, Open Edge.

    But if I strike the Bow with the Pedal Closed (CC4 at 127) I still see 46 (the note for Open Bow) but I hear the Sound of 42 (the note for Closed Bow).

    And Striking the Edge with the Pedal Closed (CC4 at 127) I still see 26 (the note for Open Edge) but I hear the Sound of 22 (the note for Closed Edge).

    Now, it's obvious that the brain is interpreting that it needs to Output the Sound for Closed Hat, for both Bow and Edge, as it senses the Pedal Position instruction.

    But why does it list notes 42 and 22 as being the Output Notes for the 2 Closed Positions, if it never puts out those notes, except by some sort of synthesis of the Open Sounds? And why are those notes there at all, as single Closed-Hat sounds, if they're never accessed by the Hi-Hat, except perhaps in some "internal-only" way? And even if they are being accessed but not shown in the stream being monitored, what is happening when, for instance, the Hi-Hat is half-open, give or take? Which Sound is being accessed in that case? In fact, it's as if those 2 notes, with their "fully closed" effect, are basically "lost" - not really usable except if accessed directly by Keyboard (for whatever purpose I can't fathom). Should I just avoid these notes in all my Mappings, or is there some purpose for them in a way that I haven't yet found out? I don't want to filter them out in case they're necessary in a way that comes up under other circumstances. So that's why I'm asking all of this.

    At one point I even suspected that these might be used if the Hi-Hat was set to one of the Fixed Position Settings, so I tested each to see if that was the case and it was not. In all 4 Fixed Position Settings, the brain still puts out the same notes as in Normal Position, except that it includes a measure of CC4, fixed at an appropriate amount, to effect the Sound of closed, partially closed, etc.

    Has anyone here had any experience with this, or checked it out before?

    Thanks in advance for your patience in reading this very long post.
    Roland TD-30, DDrum Turbo 3, DDrum4, 2Box Drumit-3, Superior 3, Original DDrum Pads/Cymbals/Hi-Hat, Roland VH-11 Hi-Hat.

  • #2
    I suppose the question I would ask is what do you want it do? I see you use SD3 so using the td30 preset will give you all you need. I think you will get about 4 different notes for hi hat transmitted and the cc4 which controls the amount of openness. If I wanted to input from a keyboard I’d probably map a controller to cc4 but why bother when you have kit that can do the job better
    Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

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    • #3
      I don't use the Company Presets in any of my stuff. I create my own in/out Environment Maps for everything (using Switches, Transformers and Instrument Maps) and follow a certain convention which effectively makes all my drum setups come into the arrangement laid out the same way, but then Outputs them back to their different Sources according to their Original Mappings, all in real-time.

      In my Logic Pro Environment is a collection of Switches and Redirects that can be used to access any drum, or even any single sound or articulation on any one of 16 Hardware or Software Instruments instantly. It has all worked very well for many years, so the only reason I asked about this is that the TD-30, which I've only just added to the group, appears to have those two unique notes listed as "Output Notes", yet they do not appear in the actual Midi Output of the Unit, although they do actually "sound". I found this to be rather curious. If I don't "see them" coming in, I obviously can't remap them, in or out. Yet if they're "sounding", why are they not showing in the Midi-Stream, which ostensibly Outputs what you are hearing?

      I guess that all I'm really asking, being unfamiliar with the TD-30 at this point, is what I asked in my post..."... is there some purpose for them in a way that I haven't yet found out? I don't want to filter them out in case they're necessary in a way that comes up under other circumstances...".

      As an example, Superior 3 uses up to 35 different notes to access different hi-hat articulations and positions, but not in every case all the time and most of which will not get used normally. So it's helpful, when making mappings from different sources, to know where they are and when you'd use or exclude them by reserving Notes on the limited 127-Note canvas. Likewise, my older DDrum3 Multi-Snare itself uses 9 individual notes for Positional Sensing (8 Head, 1 Rim), but Roland detects Positional Sensing from only 2 Notes. So the Snare "area" on the canvas will reserve 9 Notes which will all be used when the DDrum Snare is selected, but if the TD-30 Snare is selected it's notes will only occupy 3 of those spaces (Center, Edge and Rim) and the rest will become unused. When these things are incorporated all together, it's helpful to know what and where they all are, and when they all happen.

      I'm simply asking if anyone knows if the TD-30 has any sort of not well-documented functions that, if you don't know about them when you make the original Maps, could turn into a "gotcha!" later on. If not, that's OK too. I just want to know before I make the Maps.

      I'm a professional Guitarist who has always Produced my own Band's recordings over the last 50 years but I also Produce other Artists who want various different styles and sounds, hence my need for a very comprehensive but fast-switching Setup. If it was just for myself I'd just use a much simpler setup and never change it, or even just use my real Slingerland Drums which, speaking as a drummer myself, has always been my own preference.
      Roland TD-30, DDrum Turbo 3, DDrum4, 2Box Drumit-3, Superior 3, Original DDrum Pads/Cymbals/Hi-Hat, Roland VH-11 Hi-Hat.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by maxoom View Post
        Roland detects Positional Sensing from only 2 Notes.
        Regarding MIDI Roland modules do not send "PS notes". PS data are provided as CC. So you can build an engine that addresses much more than 2 or 3 notes...

        Regarding the hihat I never use any manufacturer's maps: I build my own personal engine that is able to trigger what I want and even can eliminate bugs and artifacts like the unwanted shaky sound resulting from stage transitions (i.e. Toontrack, StevenSlate). I also add features like playable FootSplashes in SSD5. You can build a really properly working hihat engine using a capable DAW.
        Last edited by Nick74; 09-23-20, 06:09 PM.

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        • #5
          Yes, I agree. I didn't intend to imply that Roland "sends" Positional Sensing "Notes", but that the Module detects Position from a limited combination of note-messages accompanied by some form of CC message, or messages, at some Value. Perhaps a more accurate word might be derives, rather than detects.
          Roland TD-30, DDrum Turbo 3, DDrum4, 2Box Drumit-3, Superior 3, Original DDrum Pads/Cymbals/Hi-Hat, Roland VH-11 Hi-Hat.

          Comment


          • #6
            The internal working of the Module is completely independent of the MIDI Note settings
            The MIDI Notes are configured as you stated. If you send in a MIDI Note on Ch10, the Module will interpret it and play the sound of the Pad associated to that MIDI Note, as you have tested with your keyboard.
            When you strike the Pad, internally it plays the sound associated with the Hi-Hat Bow or Edge based on the resistance value of the Hi-Hat Pedal as calibrated in the Trigger - Hi-Hat - Offset, completely independent of the Output MIDI settings.
            So, your Hi-Hat works correctly, playing the Closed or Open Bow or Edge sounds respectively based on the Hi-Hat Pedal Position and Offset.
            At the same time, this is interpreted and the MIDI information associated with the strike sent out of the MIDI-Out.

            There are two standards for Hi-Hat MIDI; One is to send different MIDI Notes for Open and Closed Bow and Edge (and some manufacturers even have a Half Open Note), and the other is to only send the Open Notes and the CC#4 Value for Pedal Position, leaving it to the Sequencer or DAW to interpret Pedal Position from the CC#4 and assign a sound accordingly.

            What do you have set under Setup - MIDI - CTRL - Hi-Hat Border

            Pedal CC Foot(4) sends the pedal position

            However, the Hi-Hat Border value changes the Hi-Hat Pedal Position (not the CC) at which the Module itself will cut over from sending Open Notes to Closed Notes.
            With this value at 127, it never cuts over, so it will send the Open Notes and the CC# for backward compatibility with the other standard.

            "But if I strike the Bow with the Pedal Closed (CC4 at 127) I still see 46 (the note for Open Bow)"
            Yes, it does not cut over to the Closed Notes in line with the other standard.

            "but I hear the Sound of 42 (the note for Closed Bow)."
            In the Module, this is not related to MIDI at all.

            "And Striking the Edge with the Pedal Closed (CC4 at 127) I still see 26 (the note for Open Edge)"
            Yes, it does not cut over to the Closed Notes in line with the other standard.

            "but I hear the Sound of 22 (the note for Closed Edge).
            In the Module, this is not related to MIDI at all.

            Try changing the Hi-Hat Border to any value below 127, maybe 90, and see if you then get the correct Notes.
            You can then adjust the pedal position at which the Module cuts over the MIDI Notes from Open to Closed to suit your playing.
            Last edited by tkydon; 09-24-20, 02:43 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Sorry for the delay in responding, tkydon... I was away. Thanks, you are indeed correct. I changed that parameter and it does work as you said. The parameter was set to 127, which I assume is the factory setting? Changing it to 90 produced the note change. This leads me to ask if you know which standard most people tend to use these days?
              Roland TD-30, DDrum Turbo 3, DDrum4, 2Box Drumit-3, Superior 3, Original DDrum Pads/Cymbals/Hi-Hat, Roland VH-11 Hi-Hat.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think it just depends on the Sequencer or DAW manufacturer. Both are valid configurations.
                Changing the notes gives you only two states; Open or Closed, but using the CC#4 gives you infinite range between Open and Closed in the DAW.
                Just remember that you can switch between the two on the TD-30 just by changing the Hi-Hat Border value.
                So if your DAW does not respond to the Closed Notes then try changing the Hi-Hat Border value.to 127, to see if it is expecting Open Notes and CC#4 control.

                Not relevant to you, but TD-9 has a setting:
                HH Compatibility TD-9/TD-20, or EXTERNAL
                This is a setting for the MIDI messages transmitted when you’re using an external MIDI
                sound module to sound the notes played by the TD-9 and pads.

                TD9/TD20:
                Choose this setting if you’re using just the TD-9 and pads, or if you’re using a TD series
                unit such as the TD-9 or TD-20 as your MIDI sound module.
                MIDI messages appropriate for the TD series will be transmitted.
                (i.e. Open and Closed Notes)

                EXTERNAL:
                Choose this setting if you’re using an external MIDI sound module other than the TD
                series. If you choose this setting, the display will then show the “HH Note# Border” value for adjustment.


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