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Mimic Pro direct outs to front of house

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  • Mimic Pro direct outs to front of house

    Used my Mimic for first time live. The sound tech said my sends were too hot so I went into the mixer page then into direct outs mixer.
    He uses a Soundcraft board and had no room to lower the gain left.

    I lowered the output to a level the sound tech was happy with which was @ -5db.

    I looked at the manual and the settings on the direct outs are not global but per kit so
    I had to go into every kit I use and make the appropriate settings.

    The really odd setting was the snare & snare layer are not linked.

    Thought that was strange since I already had the kits and drums sounding
    the way I liked them.

    I noticed that you have for example adjustment on the Snare direct out & Snare layer direct out.... (same with the Kick)
    If I set the Snare direct out and the Snare layer direct out to match at -5db....
    aren't I changing the sound of the snare I created in the edit mode?

    Meaning in edit mode I put that layer volume wise where I feel it sounds best...
    but then the direct output I had to change to equate for the SoundCraft mixer
    for gain levels.

    sorry if that wasn't clear.

  • #2
    I don’t believe for a second a standard module with line level outputs has so much signal going out a desk can’t handle it. Most desks give you at least 20dB gain cut if needed, and I’ve never needed anywhere near that fir any line level signal.

    id suggest the sound tech made a mistake.
    Roland TM-6 Pro and TD-11 modules with Roland RT30 triggers and Yamaha PCY cymbals. Plus all the acoustic stuff.

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    • #3
      Time for a new sound tech.
      Alan
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      website | youtube | facebook | group | newsletter | message | recommendations

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      • #4
        Awesome... 2 replies .... neither of them helpful

        Gain Staging is understood here... can anyone help me with the question?


        Last edited by bigego; 09-13-20, 05:11 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by bigego View Post
          I was surprised too as my X32 rack we use for in-ears gain was hot but I could dial it down. Our Tech uses a Soundcraft Expression 3 digital board.
          He has 30 plus years mixing. I even asked if the gain was all the way down on his board.... he said yes and it's clipping still.
          I know personally near 50 person using this live. When there is issue, mistake was done from external gear and sound engineers, such using DB25 line\XLR out in MIC line which is hot signal not made for line out for hardware synth\module, there is button to cut the gain for such device. Another mistake from supposed "sound engineers", they don't know power phantom enabled can blow synth\modules with XLR without direct box, module\synth need direct box box\rack for xlr to avoid issue.
          Last edited by Chris K; 09-13-20, 05:29 PM.

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          • #6
            I turned the gain down 5 decibels and he was happy.
            No phantom power was on... everything was fine.

            I was really hoping to learn why you can mix the snare & snare layer (or kick and kick layer)
            in two different sections of the mimic which seems to work against each other.

            1. Mixer page to Mic page > adjust layers A & B levels
            2. Mixer page > Direct Outs Mixer > you have a line out for snare and also snare layer

            Why?
            Last edited by bigego; 09-13-20, 05:55 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by bigego View Post
              Awesome... 2 replies .... neither of them helpful

              Gain Staging is understood here... can anyone help me with the question?
              Our remarks were valid. You have an engineer that doesn’t know what they’re doing. Outputs on all modules are line level. That’s -20-10 dB. There is no such thing as “too hot”. He had the FOH mixer pad settings wrong. Again, get a better engineer, or tell him to learn his gear.

              The DO output levels are if you want to customize the output levels (for say -18dB recording, or flattening your output signals for external mixing), but they should not need adjustment in this case. It’s all optional, but your engineer made a mistake. It’s ultimately fine. You fixed his mistake.
              Alan
              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              website | youtube | facebook | group | newsletter | message | recommendations

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              • #8
                Thanks for all the input... even the ones coming at me with teeth showing...
                apparently that’s typical musician & engineer bedside manner around here.

                The Mimic Module I bought used. I realized the previous owner had all of the direct outputs cranked to the max of +9.5 dB.
                I brought all of those down to -5db which seemed to match my last couple Roland modules. So I meant to say
                I dropped it down to -5 not in total 5 decibels.

                So a 15 total db change in output which I feel is substantial.

                So Alan... For live application... the direct output level of the snare and snare layer which are sharing the
                same output in my case should be the same otherwise I am giving our sound tech a different mix of the snare sound
                than I designed right?

                A thought about this forum...

                I think people use a forum like this for help...
                and sometimes the problem is user error or something that’s on
                page 3 of the manual or maybe something that was simply overlooked.

                It’s ok to talk to each other with respect and patience.

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                • #9
                  If you want what you hear in the headphones (minus master effects), then send both layers to the same output. I’d just set all the DO output levels to 0dB to start/test. (remember to check the FOH input pad level... it should be -10 or -20... usually) You may end up dropping them to around -6-10dB. IIRC, this will send the levels out at the “instrument mix level”. Meaning, you are sending only the instrument mixing, without the master effects. You will want to check balance at that point, and make minor adjustments. Most live engineers will want even signals. (not your pre-mixed balance)

                  You can turn off all master effects (kind of a pain) to check levels at the module headphones, if you don’t have another mixer to check. (much easier) If you wish to “level” all outputs at the FOH, then you’ll want to handle it like if you were in the studio. You’d route everything, set the input gains and faders at the mixer/FOH to unity (inputs at line level), and then level each DO output manually to meet your desired input level at the FOH. (like the -18dB example I stated, but live is usually higher) Generally, there WILL be small differences in your levels at the DOs before adjustment. The Mimic tries to send a “mixed” signal, but the previous owner seems to have destroyed that for you. These default level differences are not usually much to worry with, or something you may notice, but you did not tell us this was a used module, not reset, and the previous owner cranked everything almost 20dB.

                  The level differences will be based on individual instrument mixing. This will hit the FOH in the line level range. Thus, not only did the previous owner throw things off, but your engineer still had his gain input too high for any line level instrument. The module still would have sent a signal under 0dB. I would suggest resetting all your levels flat to 0 to -10dB. If this was a show-up-plug-n-play, at least you can now set everything how you desire to send it. This should produce an input at mixers in a good range. (as long as the engineer has the channel input correct)

                  Sorry if my original comment came across as brash. I just hate engineers pointing fingers at musicians when the issue is obviously knowledge of their own equipment. Your output WAS “hot”, but NOT “too hot”. Every mixer I’m aware of has options for 10dB decreases... which would have solved your 9dB boost... and it still would have been fine.

                  [edited for clarity]

                  Edit: I looked up your engineer's board. It has a -10dB line. Your DOs were maxed at 9.5dB. This means what we were telling you is correct.

                  As I mentioned, a good DO output setting for each out will be -10dB to 0dB. The previous owner was likely working with a -20 input. I'd personally do -6dB for live application. Then again, I'd probably send even levels. (adjusted per channel) This is all about balance between the gear used and your personal live/studio need. You can pick an even level for all DO outputs to send a "pre-mixed" balance, or adjust them as I mentioned above to send "level signals" at your desired signal level. If your engineer is handling "master" eq & comp, they will likely want a "level signals". This means you need to gain stage your outputs as I described when you get a chance. Once set, you should be good to go. Of course, this goes for each kit you use. Thus, it might be easier to just pick a number... like -6dB. ;-)
                  Alan
                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  website | youtube | facebook | group | newsletter | message | recommendations

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bigego View Post
                    A thought about this forum...

                    I think people use a forum like this for help...
                    and sometimes the problem is user error or something that’s on
                    page 3 of the manual or maybe something that was simply overlooked.

                    It’s ok to talk to each other with respect and patience.
                    Sorry, but this thread is making me feel uncomfortable.

                    There were answers given by members who have thousands of posts, obviously people who care about this forum and are willing to share their experience to help others.

                    Then, there are some who believe this is some kind of customer service, and expect to have the right answer they are looking for... right away, or else!
                    These people then disappear, only to come back again when another problem arises.

                    It goes both ways in places like this forum.
                    The ones that stick around have this feeling of camaraderie and we keep things light and have fun along the way while still sharing and helping others. That is the uber form of respect.

                    The ones that only do hit and run are often easily offended. Funny, eh?

                    I have only love for Alan who dedicated his life to this forum, and I feel irritated when someone demands to be helped, as if this was a company's customer service.
                    This place is populated (mostly) by people who love e-drumming and have a passion that they are willing to share.

                    Yep, it has nothing to do with the Mimic, but since you brought out this point, I felt it needed a little clarification.

                    Nevertheless, good luck on the future gigs.
                    And stick around, sharing your live gigging experiences. It would be invaluable to others as well.
                    DTX700, A2E Dixon kit, Yamaha cymbals, FSR HH
                    Kit Pix http://vdrums.com/forum/album.php?albumid=613

                    My new venture, HiEnd Speakers. : voglosounds.com

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bigego View Post

                      The Mimic Module I bought used. I realized the previous owner had all of the direct outputs cranked to the max of +9.5 dB.
                      I brought all of those down to -5db
                      Before even started, I would had clicked reset button and delete all user data at setting/sys, to get default state, would get rid of all trigger setting, mixer setting, routing etc from previous owner. Now you have deal with non default state, there might even more setting are 'wrong'.
                      Last edited by Chris K; 09-15-20, 04:20 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Done a handful of shows with the new send levels... all is good. Thanks everyone.

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