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Phantom power = destroyer of V-drum brains?

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  • Phantom power = destroyer of V-drum brains?


    I am currently running a 20' Hosa recording snake as follows: TS (not TRS) 1/4" male connectors from the direct outs on the TD-30 -----> XLR male connectors to the XLR female ins on the mixing board. The mixer is a Mackie 24-channel board with global phantom power. As of this time, the phantom power is NOT turned on because there is currently no need for it. From every indication, the TD-30 works just fine with this configuration. I intend to use a condenser headset mic for vocals, with phantom power supplied by the mixer. I have been advised that engaging phantom power could prove harmful to the TD-30 if it is connected to the mixing board in the manner described above. Is this true? If so, what are my alternatives?

    1. Use the exact same snake as described above except with TRS male connectors plugged into the direct outs?

    2. Is a DI box needed here?

    3. Use the current connection method?

    Really looking for an "I'm so sure I'd bet my life on it" answer, and thank you in advance to those kind enough to offer one up.
    TD-30 / SPD-SX

  • #2
    Which Mackie do you have? XLR mic ins are usually powered. Sometimes its global, and sometimes its per channel. (or groups of channels) If they are combo jacks, the power may be able to be disabled per channel. So far, it sounds like you have a take-it-or-leave option. You do NOT want any power going to the module AT ALL. Yes, it can damage module I/O. If you cannot disable power per channel, Id highly advise AGAINST turning phantom on AT ALL. Do you have access to a separate outboard preamp for the mic? (like a dbx rack pre/comp unit) That would be the way to go, and still use the same mixer. You could then run an external powered condenser into the mixer without issue. Otherwise, youre going to need some similar solution to keeping the power separate.
    Alan
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    • #3
      This is a great question to ask. I'm afraid I can't answer it but I'd love to extend it to get views on other modules (particularly mimic) if you're happy to do so Mick. I hadn't thought of asking it before and have been lucky to date, but I ought to get confirmation too.

      I suspect it is hardware dependent in that some modules will have built in protection against phantom power and others might not. Anything well designed for plugging into a mixing desk should be ok, but I've been caught out in the past by stuff from reputable companies that wasn't. Could we put up a wiki list of modules that are designed to be able to cope and ones that are vulnerable?

      In the event that a module is at risk because it doesn't have inbuilt protection then I think that the DI decoupling option is the easiest and safest way of ensuring you are ok. I don't think that the ts or trs connection will guarantee safety as there is still a risk of a damaging internal dc voltage between signal and earth.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by NathanE View Post
        This is a great question to ask. I'm afraid I can't answer it but I'd love to extend it to get views on other modules (particularly mimic) if you're happy to do so Mick. I hadn't thought of asking it before and have been lucky to date, but I ought to get confirmation too.

        I suspect it is hardware dependent in that some modules will have built in protection against phantom power and others might not. Anything well designed for plugging into a mixing desk should be ok, but I've been caught out in the past by stuff from reputable companies that wasn't. Could we put up a wiki list of modules that are designed to be able to cope and ones that are vulnerable?

        In the event that a module is at risk because it doesn't have inbuilt protection then I think that the DI decoupling option is the easiest and safest way of ensuring you are ok. I don't think that the ts or trs connection will guarantee safety as there is still a risk of a damaging internal dc voltage between signal and earth.
        1/4 TRS and TS on both end, do not have problem even if phantom power is on, it's only when using 1/4 to XLR, XLR are Mic line. Most electronic device with get harm, Module\Keyboard you need DI boxes to connect module\keyboard\synths etc.
        Last edited by Chris K; 02-25-19, 01:11 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Alan VEX View Post
          Which Mackie do you have? XLR mic ins are usually powered. Sometimes its global, and sometimes its per channel. (or groups of channels) If they are combo jacks, the power may be able to be disabled per channel. So far, it sounds like you have a take-it-or-leave option. You do NOT want any power going to the module AT ALL. Yes, it can damage module I/O. If you cannot disable power per channel, Id highly advise AGAINST turning phantom on AT ALL. Do you have access to a separate outboard preamp for the mic? (like a dbx rack pre/comp unit) That would be the way to go, and still use the same mixer. You could then run an external powered condenser into the mixer without issue. Otherwise, youre going to need some similar solution to keeping the power separate.
          The board is an older Mackie SR24-4. Phantom power is global, and not assignable per channel, and the input jacks are standard 1/4" or XLR (not combo jacks). The headset mic in question has not yet been purchased. Alan, what I'm gathering from your answer is I can a) stay with the connection I have, completely kill any phantom power use at the board, and use a separate mic pre for the headset, or b) engage phantom power at the board for the benefit of the headset mic and run the TD-30s direct outs through a multi-channel DI box and then to the mixer. Correct?
          TD-30 / SPD-SX

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          • #6
            If the snake is not too long (you said 20'?), you could use some xlr to 1/4 adapters and connect the drum channels to line inputs. Those are 100% unpowered. Running anything longer requires a DI anyway.

            Edit: Now that I think of it, why use a snake anyway? Just go from the module to the mixer directly by line cables. Again, if a 6-10m cable doesn't reach, a DI is required.
            Last edited by MilosDrummer; 02-25-19, 02:36 AM.
            •A kits: Mapex Saturn ltd. Mapex Meridian, Ludwig and Pearl snares, Paiste, Anatolian, DW5002TW•
            •Roland TD-12 brain, SPD-SX, Roland RT triggers•
            •Ship kits: TD-12KV, TD-30K, TD-50K•

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            • #7
              Originally posted by NathanE View Post
              . Could we put up a wiki list of modules that are designed to be able to cope and ones that are vulnerable?
              This is a great idea, and I seem to recall seeing a couple of threads out there asking the same question as mine about the Mimic.

              TD-30 / SPD-SX

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              • #8
                To my knowledge, there is no such devices that are designed to be working ok with phantom power applied to line inputs. Sooner or later the line input will fail.
                That is why everyone is using DI boxes on stage with line level output devices (keyboards tec)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mick Wade View Post

                  The board is an older Mackie SR24-4. Phantom power is global, and not assignable per channel, and the input jacks are standard 1/4" or XLR (not combo jacks). The headset mic in question has not yet been purchased. Alan, what I'm gathering from your answer is I can a) stay with the connection I have, completely kill any phantom power use at the board, and use a separate mic pre for the headset, or b) engage phantom power at the board for the benefit of the headset mic and run the TD-30s direct outs through a multi-channel DI box and then to the mixer. Correct?
                  I think that would be your best bet.

                  Regardless, your manual says those line ins are not powered at all. (only the XLRs) Since that is the case, you could swap to a non-XLR snake. You have 7 line ins, plus 2 stereo sets of line ins. You could use 6 (of the 14-20) line ins, plus the 4 in stereo (if applicable), to give you a total of 10 channels. (this might work if you're using master outs at the module as well, but I don't know your routing setup) Then, just use one of the first 6 for your condenser. You should then be able to turn power on to just the XLR, and the lines will be fine.

                  Personally, I agree that the multi-DI would be best. Mainly because you might have a rack where it can stay setup.
                  Alan
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  website | youtube | facebook | group | newsletter | twitter | message
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                  • #10
                    AFAIK, TS and or TRS is not capable of transmitting phantom power. This would be the job of a XLR or DMX cable.
                    Should be easy to verify in the manual of mixer in that only xlr should be wired for power.
                    You could also use a VOM meter to check a TRS or TS cable for 48 volts when Phantom power is turned on.
                    "It makes sense if you dont think about it"

                    Mimic Pro, SPD-SX, 2-QSC K-10s, K-sub, Yamaha mixer, and a bunch of other expensive cool things!

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                    • #11
                      I'd absolutely go with DI boxes. In addition to protecting your module they have a ground lift on them which can be helpful to eliminate ground buzz. The other advantage is you can split the signal if you wish. In my case, I send one feed to the sound guy and the split into an 8 channel mixer in my rack. This way I control my own mix in my ears without impacting anyone else. I prefer my snare much more out front in my ears so either I'd be unhappy with the sound guys mix or he'd be cursing mine if I did not split it.

                      This also helps if you're playing with a venue provided sound person. You can't control what they're doing or if they're paying attention when you're asking for a change in your monitor mix. If they stink, you can still make sure the mix and tone in your ears or monitor is great if you split the signal.
                      TD50 Digital Pack, TD30 and TD9 Modules, custom made pads, Gen16 crashes, and hats plus a few other things that I'm not sure what to do with or why they're still in my kit. Bands: Espada http://www.musicaespada.com/ and JamCo https://www.facebook.com/JamcoEntertainment, https://www.jamcoband.com/

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                      • #12
                        And get reliable gear protection just in case https://www.vdrums.com/forum/general...rformance-help

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mr.Boo View Post
                          To my knowledge, there is no such devices that are designed to be working ok with phantom power applied to line inputs. Sooner or later the line input will fail.
                          That is why everyone is using DI boxes on stage with line level output devices (keyboards tec)
                          Ok cool, thanks Mr Boo. The thing I guess made me think otherwise is that I understood the mimic outputs are balanced so seem designed to feed straight into a mixer rather than via a di.

                          Out of interest my Roland rd2000 and my headrush fx amp modelling unit are both equipped with balanced outs (xlr form factor) designed to feed direct into a desk and have phantom protection IIRC, so it definitely is becoming more common. It must be worth looking into for future hardware developments on the mimic.

                          It just becomes a few hundred pounds more expensive and hassle to bring a multi channel DI unit to sit between the balanced outs of the mimic and the balanced ins of the mixer. However if that's what is needed to prevent a careless sound tech frying kit sobeit.

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                          • #14
                            Just to clarify. Don't confuse TRS output with line level unbalanced ones. A balanced output can be XLR or TRS, just a matter of connector, so if the output is balanced (should be stated in the spec sheet or the manual for the device), it needs no DI and suffers no trouble from the fantom power. Anything else like the direct outs from the TD30 is a line level unbalanced and needs a short(er) TS going to line in or a DI going to XLR in.
                            •A kits: Mapex Saturn ltd. Mapex Meridian, Ludwig and Pearl snares, Paiste, Anatolian, DW5002TW•
                            •Roland TD-12 brain, SPD-SX, Roland RT triggers•
                            •Ship kits: TD-12KV, TD-30K, TD-50K•

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MilosDrummer View Post
                              so if the output is balanced (should be stated in the spec sheet or the manual for the device), it suffers no trouble from the fantom power..
                              Can you please post a source of this info?

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