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E-drums, no half-open hi-hat when recording MIDI. How to choose a drum that allows it

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  • E-drums, no half-open hi-hat when recording MIDI. How to choose a drum that allows it

    Hi guys,

    I've had a sad experience lately : as a songwriter I started to practice regularly on an acoustic after my band rehearsal, then I figured I need an E-drum to practice at home, plus I'd be able to record MIDI, sounds great !

    Then I bought the Alesis Nitro Kit, wonderfully bang for your buck when it comes to practice, but then, (drumroll please) I started to record and realised it does'nt allow me to play half open hi-hat when recording MIDI....Noooooooooo (that' what I said). Funny thing, it works perfectly when it's not on MIDI.

    Anyway I really need this feature to record. Half-open hi-hat are so tasty I couldn't imagine not using them.

    After an exchange with alesis support it seems that some module (apparently the Dm6 nitro is one of them) do not feature this characteristic for MIDI language (I'm still waiting for confirmation though).

    So here is my question guys :
    How to know if a given E-drum features the half-open hi-hat when recording MIDI ? It is sooo important for the home-studio, yet it doesn't seem to be advertised on E-drum product descriptions whether or not it does it.

    And bonus question : what E-drum between 400-800 features that while also being good (dare I say great) for practice to ?

    Thanks guys and have a wonderfull rhythm day !




  • #2
    From what I know, the MIDI Standards never really implemented anything around HiHat very well, and the MIDI implementation on Drum Kits does not seem to support degrees of openness of Hi-Hat, and depends more on the sending and receiving MIDI devices or Software to mutually agree.

    For example, for the Roland TD20X
    (find the manual here: https://www.manualslib.com/products/...x-3627517.html Pages 118, 137)
    The Hi-Hat MIDI Notes are transmitted according to the position of the Foot Pedal (Open or Closed) on MIDI Channel# 10
    Closed Hi-Hat Rim MIDI Note# 22
    Open Hi-Hat Rim MIDI Note# 26
    Closed Hi-Hat Bow MIDI Note# 42 (same as GM#1)
    Open Hi-Hat Bow MIDI Note# 46 (same as GM#1)
    Pedal Hi-Hat Close MIDI Note# 44 (same as GM#1)
    There is no note assigned for Half-Open Hi-Hat.

    The Pedal Control Change Message (on CC #4) transmits a value for the position of the Hi-Hat pedal. It would be up to the receiving MIDI device to interpret that input and change the associated Hi-Hat sound accordingly. (Rockband implemented this very well in the Training Area, but not at all in the actual Performance Area)...

    The Hi-Hat Note# Border determines the value of the Foot Pedal position at which the Module switches between transmitting the Closed MIDI Note numbers, or the Open MIDI Note numbers. The default is 127, meaning that the Module sends the Closed Notes when the value os 127, and the Open notes for any other value. It would be up to the receiving MIDI Device or Software to interpret the Open Note Numbers and the Pedal Control Change Message value and change the degree of open sound accordingly.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_MIDI#Percussion shows GM#1
    Closed HiHat MIDI Note# 42
    Pedal HiHat MIDI Note# 44
    Open HiHat MIDI Note# 46
    There is no note assigned for Half-Open Hi-Hat.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera..._2#Drum_sounds shows GM#2
    There is no note assigned for Half-Open Hi-Hat.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_GS shows Roland Extensions...

    I found the manual for your Module here
    https://7132afa424c2f1a2ab6d-54d68a1...Guide-v1.0.pdf

    I see on page 38 that Alesis has implemented a non-standard
    Hi-Hat Open MIDI Note# 46 (same as GM#1)
    Hi-Hat Half-Open MIDI Note# 23
    Hi-Hat Closed MIDI Note# 42 (same as GM#1)
    Hi-Hat Pedal MIDI Note# 44 (same as GM#1)
    Splash MIDI Note# 21

    Therefore you need to program your receiving MIDI Device or Software to assign and play a Half-Open Hi-Hat Sound to MIDI Note# 23 and a Splash sound to MIDI Note# 21. These Notes are not assigned in GM#1 or GM#2.

    On Roland, MIDI Note# 23 is usually used for Brush Sweep, and MIDI Note# 21 is unassigned on the Module (Channel 10).

    If you ask me, the MIDI Standard was never very well thought out, especially where Drums are concerned, and needs to be completely redesigned.
    Last edited by tkydon; 08-05-18, 03:21 AM.

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    • #3
      Great answer above. What software are you using to record is the next question and what drum plugin are you using? Does it allow you to remap midi notes?
      Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi!

        In most VSTs there is an advanced way to do it. You only need to send the bow or edge midi note + the cc:04 and the software will determine if the sound is open, closed or somewhere in between (on a 0-127 scale) - and internally pick the right notes/sounds)

        (it would have been nice if VST where reading PS on cc:16 also...but I have not found any VST that do it)

        So really to map everything is unnecessary.

        Lets say that midi is very flexible. :-)

        Best regards

        Anders / www.zourman.com
        Last edited by angr77; 08-05-18, 07:06 AM.
        Pearl CrystalBeat and Sonor Safari, Roland CY-14/13R/15R/12CR, RT-10x,2xBT-1,VH-11/12/13 & KD-10, Quartz, Pintech Dingbat, Triggera D14,D11, ATV AD-h14, 120MHz MegaDRUM with PS board, 2box 5&3, dd4SE, TD-9, Addictive Drums 2.1.8. All ADpaks, Microsoft Surface PRO, Macbook, Pearl Throne Thumper, Zourman HH & Ride Conv Kit www.zourman.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi guys,

          I don't have access to my home-studio right now but thanks a lot for those great answers. I will check that when I'm back at my place. I'm not even sure the Alesis Nitro Kit is able to actually play half-open when plugged as a midi-controler (still waiting for Alesis's answer, it's been 6 days, pretty bad support if you ask me).

          Tkydon: I will try what you suggested about the Midinote#23.

          Mkok; Cubase and "Made in detroit" plugin, I'm not sure it does allow to remap midi notes.

          Angr77: I will try to. Alesis did say that the dm6 module doesn't support control change though :/ Don't know if it is the same module as Nitro kit.

          In any case, does anyone of you know a good drum about 600-800 that will be good for recording midi ? (In case it is confirmed I cannot do those open hi-hat on the nitro)

          Comment


          • #6
            Cubase has drum maps that allow you to change note assignment from in to out. Also logical edit can do this sort of thing. From an earlier answer there looks to be other options although Ive never used or heard of the plugin you mention so cant be sure of what it recognises
            Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi guys,

              I'v had the time to run a couple of test. But first I would like to say: do not buy an Alesis Nitro for MIDI recording. It's total crap. Even with fine tuning of the settings the signal is suuuuuper weak and the hi-hat misses a lot of notes. Plus as mentionned earlier you cannot open the hit-hat with your left foot. Well **** happens.

              Now, I've had a friend of mine lend me is Roland TD4-kp. fine little drum. On cubase I had to re-do the midi note attribution of each pad though. It was a bit crazy. Like the Tom was triggering the crash and the HH edge three things at a time (Kick-Snare-Crash: bongos !).

              After I did a little fine-tuning I've managed to get everything in order and the HH to open when I lift my foot from the controler, but ! (yes there is a but).

              After I lifted my left foot to get that swishy hi-hat sound, I have to put it down again to close the hi-hat right ? Well at this very moment it trigers a crash !! a crash yes.

              So on my recording each time I play an open hi-hat, just after you can hear a crash (I am crying right now). I tried every possible setting, it doesn't work :/ only workaround I have found: mute that crash on my software. I mean when you put your foot down it should make the same sound as it does when you do it on practice mode (namely a hi-hat being closed) But no, it triggers a crash :/

              And the funniest thing you cannot set-up the MIDI note of the HH pedal/controler. When you try to choose the HH controler on the drum module it gives you the HH itself ! I figured it's normal since it belongs with the HH, the name on the screen are the same. But it you give closed HH as a midi note to the HH controler (with the foot down) it again triggers something else, and messes up the HH itself. I am lost :/

              Plus even though I can now open the hi-hat when playing it is not a hal-open that is triggered, it is a fully open, so it takes ages to fade. Bottom line it still doesn't sound really good and authentic. (I'm crying right now) I am kidding of course but I do feel a bit helpless

              I know all of this sounds complicated but it is a pain in the ass.

              So, after I digressed (sorry about that) here are my question:

              How can I get the Hi-hat controler to do only his job, namely opening and closing the hi-hat ?

              Comment


              • #8
                Does the drum software not come with different ekit presets for triggering like SD3 does? What you are getting is a cymbal for foot splash. Have you looked at the drum maps in cubase? Does the software allow you to map the different hi hat articulations. The kit should be able do do what you need.
                Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

                Comment


                • #9
                  See Page 38 of the Alesis Manual

                  Pad MIDI Note Numbers
                  Trigger MIDI Note Number Trigger MIDI Note Number
                  Kick 36 Ride 51
                  Snare 38 Crash 1 49
                  Snare Rim 40 Crash 2 57
                  Tom 1 48 Hi-Hat Open 46
                  Tom 1 Rim 50 Hi-Hat Half-Open 23
                  Tom 2 45 Hi-Hat Closed 42
                  Tom 2 Rim 47 Hi-Hat Pedal 44
                  Tom 3 43 Splash 21
                  Tom 3 Rim 58
                  Tom 4 41
                  Tom 4 Rim 39

                  You either need to change the Software to assign the correct Instrument sounds to these MIDI Note Numbers sent by the Alesis, or change the MIDI Note Numbers the Alesis sends (not recommended) to match the software you are using.

                  Or, you could check out IrfanView 64 PC software that can change MIDI Notes, In to Out...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Its a TD4 being used now so the problem is with this. I suggest you take a look at the note numbers this module sends. Id suspect it is the same as any other Roland module
                    Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ok thanks, I redid the Midi note MApping. Now it's ok.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi
                        not meaning to hijack this thread... I'm having some issues, likely to being new at this, in regards to the hi hat.
                        so I'm using a roland td12 through the scarlett 6i6.
                        it then goes into sd3 and finally reaper as my daw.

                        in reaper, I'm trying to isolate the individual components of the td12, which is super easy. Until the hats.
                        basically to isolate each component, you enter in the range the component is in. Kick 36, snare 38-40, etc.

                        so the hats are 22, 26, 42, 44, 46.
                        I tried isolating 42-46 but only get open hats. My closed hats register as 22.

                        any of you wizards know the cure? Or at least know where the doctor is hiding?

                        thanks
                        Last edited by Vikingen666; 05-03-19, 11:58 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Update on the hi hat multi track. Temporary fix imo but working.

                          so I ended up making 2 hi hat tracks. One that filters 22-26 and one that filters 42-46. Sucks having 2 tracks.

                          the question I have is? Where is this assigned and where is the best place to reassign?

                          does my td12 assign it to 22, 26, 42, 44, 46 and sd3 just runs with it relaying it to the daw?
                          should I reassign it in the td12 brain or is it possible to reassign it within superior drummer?

                          what's best/ ideal?

                          thanks

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vikingen666 View Post
                            Update on the hi hat multi track. Temporary fix imo but working.

                            so I ended up making 2 hi hat tracks. One that filters 22-26 and one that filters 42-46. Sucks having 2 tracks.

                            the question I have is? Where is this assigned and where is the best place to reassign?

                            does my td12 assign it to 22, 26, 42, 44, 46 and sd3 just runs with it relaying it to the daw?
                            should I reassign it in the td12 brain or is it possible to reassign it within superior drummer?

                            what's best/ ideal?

                            thanks
                            I guess my first question might be why are you trying to separate your MIDI elements in Reaper? I suspect that you are wanting individual tracks in Reaper coming out from SD3 - is that right?

                            If so, instead of splitting up the MIDI, I would simply run multiple outputs from SD3 into Reaper, which will even build the routing automatically for you if you insert SD3 as a virtual instrument on your single MIDI track.

                            If I were you, I would definitely try to avoid mapping the hi-hat by hand if at all possible. Choose the TD-12 preset in the SD3 edrums settings and let the software work its magic.

                            If you're after something different here, let me know, and I'll try to help.
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                            • #15
                              Guys,
                              Yall are awesome. It is good to know that others have the same problems that I have, that is with my hi hat anyway. I think that I can at least make my hi hat problem better just by learning from reading these posts. I have the TD -20 and use studio one. If I make any headway I will let you know. Thanks.

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