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ATV aD H-14 HiHat setup w mimic pro?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by MJB View Post
    Man, I am about done with this thing. This shouldn't be so complicated to set up. Not reassuring is the fact that the FB group seems to be full of people having problems getting the ATV aD-H14 hi-hats to work with the Mimic. There are all kinds of microadjustments people are making and talking about, from how loose the clutch is, to what size of felt to use, to ideal pedal tension, etc. It's madness. I feel like most of it is speculative witchcraft. Some people seem to be getting their hats to work to an acceptable level, but are sacrificing things like a usable foot splash..
    Full of people having problem, a bit exaggerated, ATV and mimic have been available since 2.5 years, ATV had 2 version of clutch, their optical controller are sensitive with different type of felt from x brand of hihat, some are softer and others stronger, when you press close hihat on pressure, the hihat controller move down and up, how do you think calibration would be always strait? even with ad5 that happening, the pearl rubber base help, felt with usage it get compressed on clutch, you can get x variable from x people, different hihat stand and pedal tension make difference with all hihat on the market.
    Last edited by Chris K; 12-02-19, 01:28 AM.

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    • #47
      Well, maybe “full of people” is a bit of an exaggeration, but it certainly isn’t difficult to find people having issues. Maybe my perception is colored by the fact that the top post this evening was a thread about problems with ATV hats, and it was labeled “part 3” and seemed to have a lot of participation.

      Your point about different pedals is noted, interesting that the aD5 includes pedal manufacturer as part of hi-hat set-up. I wonder how many they include?

      I also think I finally understand why the Pearl rubber cup makes a difference - it likely has a higher durometer than the felt and resists compression more (well, felt isn’t measured that way, but you know what I mean). Anyway, in that way perhaps it represents a more stable base.

      Anyway, I’m not knocking the Mimic, or the ATV hats, but I do believe they are objectively difficult to work with. I read a post by someone saying they spent six hours setting theirs up and still had some fine tuning to do. I myself have spent a few hours already - certainly not six, but I’m really no closer to finished than when I started. I understand that what that means is the Mimic is incredibly powerful and nuanced in how it processes data, no doubt about it. But ultimately I got into e-drumming as a more practical every day alternative to acoustic drumming, not because I wanted to spend literally hours thinking about trigger settings. Maybe I chose the wrong module for me, I don’t know.
      Last edited by MJB; 12-02-19, 01:36 AM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by MJB View Post
        Well, maybe “full of people” is a bit of an exaggeration, but it certainly isn’t difficult to find people having issues. Maybe my perception is colored by the fact that the top post this evening was a thread about problems with ATV hats, and it was labeled “part 3” and seemed to have a lot of participation.

        Your point about different pedals is noted, interesting that the aD5 includes pedal manufacturer as part of hi-hat set-up. I wonder how many they include?

        I also think I finally understand why the Pearl rubber cup makes a difference - it likely has a higher durometer than the felt and resists compression more (well, felt isn’t measured that way, but you know what I mean). Anyway, in that way perhaps it represents a more stable base.

        Anyway, I’m not knocking the Mimic, or the ATV hats, but I do believe they are objectively difficult to work with. I read a post by someone saying they spent six hours setting theirs up and still had some fine tuning to do. I myself have spent a few hours already - certainly not six, but I’m really no closer to finished than when I started. I understand that what that means is the Mimic is incredibly powerful and nuanced in how it processes data, no doubt about it. But ultimately I got into e-drumming as a more practical every day alternative to acoustic drumming, not because I wanted to spend literally hours thinking about trigger settings. Maybe I chose the wrong module for me, I don’t know.
        Just do what you more comfortable with.

        If you like mimic - I'd buy the roland hihat
        If AD5 is comparable to mimic for you and you don't really need mimic features - I'd go for AD5
        Or you can assemble your DIY hihat with roland cymbal and cheap hihat controller.
        Check out this video
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJtu3dImXVU
        You probably already has a cymbal for it, and the controller is just about $60
        https://www.amazon.com/Goedrum-GHC-E.../dp/B00UBGYBTO

        If you can afford to wait for a few weeks, there probably could be a fix for that later. Can't promise till I'll get in touch with ATV guys.
        Last edited by Mr.Boo; 12-02-19, 07:05 AM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by MJB View Post

          Believe me, I would very much like the problem to be me and not the equipment! Right now I'm pretty frustrated, though, because I think I'm generally pretty smart, and I have in fact read all the instructions as well as numerous forum and Facebook posts. More than that, I believe I actually understand the instructions - but the gear is not responding as I expect. Frustrating especially since I have what is generally regarded to be the dest drum module on the market paired with the 1st or 2nd best electronic hi-hat (depending on who you ask) - yet I feel like I had better performance with the VH-10 on my old TD-17KVX - it just worked. And I just watched a video of someone setting up an ATV hi-hat on an aD5, and again, it just worked. Nice chick, effortless foot splash, and to my ear much better sounding in general.

          Anyway, as I said, the ribber cup is ordered - I'm not sure how or why that would make a big difference, but I've seen it suggested several times in several places, and it's <$4, so kind of a no brainer.

          Thanks for providing your settings, I'll see if they're any help to me. Curous how you ended up with a "extra tight closed" valued of 419, though? Do you have a piece of foam or something between the hats?
          Oh I have the rubber pad and extra tight/closed is lower for me now. Also a little experiment to avoid foot splashes and get nice chicks, You are grossly overestimating troubles that the finest module on the market and the finest HH trigger have together. It's a beautiful combination of the finest technology available with a 360 degree playing surface. It works beautifully.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Howstamychi View Post

            Oh I have the rubber pad and extra tight/closed is lower for me now. Also a little experiment to avoid foot splashes and get nice chicks, You are grossly overestimating troubles that the finest module on the market and the finest HH trigger have together. It's a beautiful combination of the finest technology available with a 360 degree playing surface. It works beautifully.
            There are clearly problems with some ATV hihats and mimic.
            Most of these are working great out of the box and there are no problems and no need for any fine tuning.
            But some do have problems.
            There were just one or two reports like that before, and most problem swith hihat was due to mono (not TRS) cable or forgotten power supply.
            But now we are getting more reports like that.

            Thus, as I said, I'll try to contact ATV to find a solution and make ATV and our customers happy.

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            • #51
              Well, I appreciate everybody’s help. Again, I’m not bashing any of these products, and readily acknowledge many (perhaps most) people seem to be having no trouble with them. I can only say that my experience has not been trouble-free. It could all be me, but I assure you that I have read through pertinent sections of the manual multiple times, as well as pored over relevant forum and FB posts. I believe I understand the technical aspects of the triggering to be able to set things up at a passable, if not expert, level. I would much rather make this work than any of the other options I’ve laid out, but ultimately I don’t want to be so stubbornly loyal to any particular product that I settle on something that I’m not satisfied with, and I don’t have limitless time to figure this out.

              I have the rubber cup thingy arriving at the end of the week, so I will keep trying at least until then. But I think I’m going to have to make a decision shortly afterward, at least if I’m going to send the ATV hats back.

              Mr. Boo, I greatly appreciate your offer to reach out to ATV. I think that technical communication among some of the bigger players in this market can only be a good thing. Maybe nothing comes of it, but your effort at great customer service is not lost on me.

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              • #52
                I added one of these rubber pads to my ATV bottom hi hat to add some weight and make it slightly quieter. It helps with foot splashes for me. I cut out the center of it: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...B&gclsrc=aw.ds
                Also,what hi hat stand and tension are you using?
                Last edited by Peter Warren; 12-02-19, 11:22 AM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Peter Warren View Post
                  I added one of these rubber pads to my ATV bottom hi hat to add some weight and make it slightly quieter. It helps with foot splashes for me. I cut out the center of it: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...B&gclsrc=aw.ds
                  Also,what hi hat stand and tension are you using?
                  I have some old Evans SoundOff mutes, in fact I should have a 12" if I'm not mistaken. That's a good thought for eliminating some of the "clomp" sound, and if it helps with triggering somewhat, all the better. Thanks for the tip.

                  Also, I'm using a DW 5500D. I don't know how to characterize or convey the tension exactly, but it's not loose, IMO. All the same, I will play with tightening it and see if that helps at all.

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                  • #54
                    You can remove the bottom hat to eliminate the clomp by just pushing the rubber gasket thru the cymbal. It seems to work fine without the bottom hat. If not, easy to replace.
                    ATV aDrums Artist expanded kit, Mimic Pro. Ludwig 1967 black oyster pearl five piece, Zildjian A custom crashes, A. Zildjian ride and hats.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by RIneuron View Post
                      You can remove the bottom hat to eliminate the clomp by just pushing the rubber gasket thru the cymbal. It seems to work fine without the bottom hat. If not, easy to replace.
                      II did try that, and I prefer it in many ways, but it seemed to make the phantom foot splashes worse when playing foot chick patterns.

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                      • #56
                        Sorry for jumping in to this interesting discussion. The ATV aD-H14 is quite complex. I would argu this after more than 100 hours spent on development trying to adapt it to 2box...that it has some strange behaviors.

                        It is active because of the optical sensor...the hihat pedal does not supply a resistor load on its output (as all Rolands do)...instead it is sending out a voltage range which is similar to what a ordinary vh-13 would produce on a Roland resistorbased pedal (Supplied by 5V from the module). So in worst case...the dual power existing in the system (ATV or Module) could start fighting each other or even start to interfere over the shared earth...if you use it in a hard environment like on stage or basement with a lot of earth sources. (So I would argu that it works sometimes and sometimes not)

                        In my case - I finally did nail it for 2box, but I needed to add a special filter to get rid of all strange behaviors.

                        Using a mono cable for the pedal is not good on the ATV...because ATV sends out 5 Volt on the ring. (then you get even more problems if not handled right) Always TRS!

                        however, I am guessing that my input won’t help Mimic/ATV users...but could at least lead to where to start digging.

                        Best regards

                        Anders / www.zourman.com
                        Pearl CrystalBeat and Sonor Safari, Roland CY-14/13R/15R/12CR, RT-10x,2xBT-1,VH-11/12/13 & KD-10, Pintech Dingbat, Triggera D14,D11, ATV AD-h14, 120MHz MegaDRUM with PS board, 2box 5&3, dd4SE, Yamaha DTX502, Addictive Drums 2.1.8. All ADpaks, Microsoft Surface PRO, Macbook, Pearl Throne Thumper, Zourman HH & Ride Conv Kit www.zourman.com

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by angr77 View Post
                          Sorry for jumping in to this interesting discussion. The ATV aD-H14 is quite complex. I would argu this after more than 100 hours spent on development trying to adapt it to 2box...that it has some strange behaviors.

                          It is active because of the optical sensor...the hihat pedal does not supply a resistor load on its output (as all Rolands do)...instead it is sending out a voltage range which is similar to what a ordinary vh-13 would produce on a Roland resistorbased pedal (Supplied by 5V from the module). So in worst case...the dual power existing in the system (ATV or Module) could start fighting each other or even start to interfere over the shared earth...if you use it in a hard environment like on stage or basement with a lot of earth sources. (So I would argu that it works sometimes and sometimes not)

                          In my case - I finally did nail it for 2box, but I needed to add a special filter to get rid of all strange behaviors.

                          Using a mono cable for the pedal is not good on the ATV...because ATV sends out 5 Volt on the ring. (then you get even more problems if not handled right) Always TRS!

                          however, I am guessing that my input won’t help Mimic/ATV users...but could at least lead to where to start digging.

                          Best regards

                          Anders / www.zourman.com
                          It would help if you can post all info you have.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Peter Warren View Post
                            I added one of these rubber pads to my ATV bottom hi hat to add some weight and make it slightly quieter. It helps with foot splashes for me. I cut out the center of it: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...B&gclsrc=aw.ds
                            Also,what hi hat stand and tension are you using?
                            i can see that i can choose a 13" as well from your link, but is there a special reason to choose 12" for the ATV Hi Hat?

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                            • #59
                              Well, I think I'm making some progress, little by little.

                              A few things: I tightened my hi-hat a little but more, that seemed to help. I had been playing mostly Zildjian L80 hats recently, so it makes sense that the heavier ATVs would need more tension. I also am starting to figure out all the sliders a little more.

                              I'm also finding it useful to override the modules values somewhat when setting full open and closed - well, to be mores specific, I leave the full open alone, but I had to bring the extra tight setting up quite a bit. There's a bit of flex in the top hi-hat, so when you get to what I consider closed, you can still get a fair amount of travel by pushing down harder. I realize in an acoustic hi-hat, there is a difference between normal tight and extra tight and choked out, but this is more than that. If you're familiar with ATV cymbals you know there's kind of a foamy O-ring at the mounting hole. I believe that this gives the crashes and ride the vary natural sway on the cymbal sleeve. Well, in the case of the hi-hat, if you press very hard on the pedal while the hats are fully closed, there is a little bit of give in the foam O-ring such that the pull rod can continue to travel downward, to what I feel is an unnatural degree. I was able to achieve a more realistic feel by raising the blue "extra tight" bar higher than the module wanted to set it, and I also figured out the yellow bar a little more, and got things to where I could play pretty realistically with different degrees of separation between the cymbals: extra tight and choked, a little looser for some sizzle, and various stages of open. Pretty happy with that. We'll see if the Pearl rubber cup hi-hat washer makes any discernible difference once it arrives.

                              Foot splashes are another thing. I feel like the hi-hat wants a very, very specific amount of pressure to trigger a foot splash, and I can't quite get it consistently with my foot. I can do it with my hand, over and over again, but I think it's just going to take more practice for my left foot to get that level of fine control. I feel like it's much more difficult than with acoustic hats, but at least I know it's possible and I can work on it.

                              The only really objectionable problem at this point is the random bow or edge triggering when I'm playing chick note patterns (usually 16ths). I don't know what is causing that, or how to fix it. I guess it's almost like crosstalk maybe, but I don't see a way to enable crosstalk suppression between different zones of a single pad. This is a fairly big problem, but I'm starting to feel more confident that I'll get it dialed in eventually.

                              My only other real complaint about they cymbal is that it's rather loud and "clomp-y" when playing foot chicks. Even wearing Vic Firth stereo isolation headphones, I can sometimes hear the clomp if the headphone volume is too low. It's pretty unpleasant and distracting. I tried Peter's suggestion of damping the bottom cymbal with an old Evans SoundOff pad. It works ok. Reduces noise by maybe half, at the most, but to my hear it also changes the character of the noise enough to make it a little less objectionable. Not so hollow and plasticky sounding, or something. This is using the 12". I tried a 14" mute that I had as well - it fit the full radius of the cymbal, and decreased noised even more since it fit in between the two cymbals' contact point, but it affected triggering and feel by way too much. Maybe a 13" would be a happy medium, I don't know.

                              What I really want to get to work is ditching the bottom plastic cymbal altogether, and just using the top rubber cymbal as a single floating hi-hat in the style of Roland's VH-10 and -11. When I had a VH-10 I used to wish they had bothered to add a bottom cymbal for better aesthetics, and it was one of the things I liked about the ATV - but after trying it, I think the much lower noise of the floating design trumps the better look of the more traditional two cymbal design. I think I will continue to play it as is for a while, and see if I eventually get used to the noise, as it seems like many others have. If not, I will probably try it again without the bottom cymbal, and see if I can get it dialed in, since I feel like I'm understanding the trigger settings a little better. I know a few people are using only the top cymbal, reportedly without loss of function.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by MJB View Post
                                I was able to achieve a more realistic feel by raising the blue "extra tight" bar higher than the module wanted to set it, and I also figured out the yellow bar a little more, and got things to where I could play pretty realistically with different degrees of separation between the cymbals: extra tight and choked, a little looser for some sizzle, and various stages of open. Pretty happy with that.
                                During "close/open capture" - you don't need to press the hihat to death =) This steps is intended for capturing of you real life open to close hihat range. I mean module should know where is your particular hihat/stand/foot tight close position to select proper samples for that.
                                Thus if you press it unrealistically hard - then you'll get unrealistical response, because you would never press the pedal so hard in real life.

                                For the yellow line, it is useful to doubletap the slider and dial it with knob/left hand while playing various patterns with right hand at the very same time.

                                PS I'll start trying out a few things about custom ATV trigger preset in a few days, so it would be nice if you could test it later maybe if you wish.

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