TD-8 sequencer---2 drum sets (warning:stupid user content)

[klp]

OK I am about to ask what seems like an insanely basic question. Please be gentle...

I want to record a loop with one drum set and play along to it with another--or maybe even record a sequence with two different sets. How do I do it?

If I record my loop to the drumset track then the sounds change when I select a new kit.

The obvious solution is to record the loop to the percussion track or one of the other tracks but after playing around with the module, reading the manual and searching this site I still can't figure out how to access the other tracks without a separate keyboard. Does anyone care to take pity on me and provide an answer????

It seems like this would be the most basic application of the onboard sequencer in the TD-8. You'd think they would cover it in detail in the manual.

Thanks!
klp

[klp]

Anyone....?
Buehler....??


A similar question: How do I record backing tracks without a keyboard? Can a use the pads to trigger the backing track sounds? How?

[jrcel]

You could probably buy commercialy available midi songs in SMF type 0 or 1 and play them either through a computer with sequencing program or something like a Data Disk into the TD-10 and record one track at a time. The only limitation like wth my Drumkat is that you only have 99 measures per pattern available to record on. With Cakewalk they even give you songs you can take apart and rearrange any way you want. As far as playback, Roland modules give you several ways to do this. Start/stop, start/continue or Tap which plays one note per strike of the pad and one shot which plays the pattern once, I think thats it.



[This message has been edited by jrcel (edited March 11, 2002).]

[digitsone]

klp -

since noone has answered your first question, i'll take a stab at it. i don't think this can be done as you are describing. my recollection is that the sequencer triggers sounds form whatever current drum kit you are using, and so your only option would be to work something out with a percussion group.

most people use en external sequencer for any semi-serious sequencing application. the roland sequencers leave quite a bit to be desired.

good luck!

[klp]

Originally posted by digitsone:
klp -

since noone has answered your first question, i'll take a stab at it. i don't think this can be done as you are describing. my recollection is that the sequencer triggers sounds form whatever current drum kit you are using, and so your only option would be to work something out with a percussion group.

most people use en external sequencer for any semi-serious sequencing application. the roland sequencers leave quite a bit to be desired.

good luck!

OUCH. That is what I was afraid of.

It seems like basic (and highly desireable) functionality to me. I am surprised that it is not possible.

I had dream of being able to record a loop on one of the goofy sounding "de-tuned" sets and then play along with it with a normal sounding drum set. I was hoping I could do this without becoming a midi-geek but it looks like I'll have to take the plunge.

Between a TD-8 a computer and a HR-16 maybe I can get somewhere...

[klp]

HEY THIS CAN BE DONE!!

It is possible to sequence one drumset part and play along with it with another drumset. Here's how:

1) Record the drum kit part.

## Move the drum kit pattern to the percussion track ##
2) Select Pattern/F3(Menu)/Edit
3) Edit = Copy
Source (pattern#n)
Dest (pattern#n) (same pattern for source and dest)
4) select F2 (MEAS)
5) SOURCE PART = KIT
MEAS = ALL
DEST PART = PERCUSSION
MEAS = 1
6) F3 (EXEC)
You have now copied the drumset sequence to the percussion track.

## Erase the original drum kit track ###
7) EXIT
8) F3 (Menu) Edit
9) Edit ERASE (***NOT DELETE***)
10) F2 (MEAS)
11) PART = KIT
MEAS = ALL
12) EXEC
You have now erased the original drum kit track.

## Edit the percussion track sounds ##
13) EXIT
14) F2 (Part)/Setup
15) Perc Set = 11 or 12 (user1 or user2)
16) F3(INST)
Now assign the sounds that you desire to the note numbers that are being triggered by the sequence (there is a list of the drum kit note numbers on page 185 of my TD-8 Manual).

Now you can select any kit to play along with this sequence. The sounds in the sequence will not change when the kit changes.

I know these instructions sound like a real pain in the a$$ and frankly, they are. But really all of these instructions just amount to a few major steps--record the sequence/transfer it to the percussion track/erase the original drum tracks/be sure that the percusion instruments are set to your liking.



[This message has been edited by klp (edited June 01, 2002).]

[gingerbaker]

Bravo KLP !!

You get my vote for the Most Useful Post since I have been a member!!!

The solution to this problem has evaded even the most learned and enormous minds of this illustrious and august forum until your post.

While the solution is not exactly diabolically simple, it is enormously valuable.

Now we can record our own percussion tracks for songs, and start/end them with a pad hit. This is very exciting, I think.

It also adds something significant to the E vs A argument.

Seriously, well done indeed!!

[klp]

Awww shucks. (blushes)

Actually, I must give credit where it is due. When Mike Snyder came to Seattle there was another Roland rep with him. Who was that masked man? I think his name was Mike too but didn't catch the last name. This question stumped Snyder but the other guy played around with a TD-8 for about 20 minutes and finally came up with the method that I presented above.

You can also use this method as a way to record sequences to the "other instrument" tracks but there are some BIG limitations. (The pads don't send any information about duration of the note for example and they also seem to only send on a few specific midi note numbers. Play with it, you'll see.)

I used this method to sequence a Steel Drum bass line. I can tap the bass line with my bass drum pedal and play a melody over it with my hands. Instant steel drum band!

[steve.jo2]

I've recently been exploring this avenue too. I also was amased at how little was covered in the manual. I therefore contacted the 'Tech Support!' who to my amazement seemed to know even less than I did.

However... & I know that this avoids your original request ( to be able to record a loop that won't change sounds when you change patches,WITHOUT using a seperate keyboard)For the sake & cost of either buying a cheap dummy keyboard which are nearly all midi compatible these days, or borrowing one? (everyone knows someone, Right?)
It saves alot of hassle to do it using a keyboard.
Steve.

[klp]

My reasons for not using a keyboard:

1) I don't have one.
2) I am a cheapskate.
3) I don't have any friends.

Seriously, you are right that it would be easier and MUCH more effective to sequence some melodic line from a keyboard but if I am going to do a DRUM or percussion loop I would rather play it with sticks on the pads that I already own than by tapping away on some midi controller.

I really wish that Roland would have made this easier. I would have thought that a lot of drummers would want this capability.



[This message has been edited by klp (edited June 03, 2002).]

[glaker]

yup

I've needed to do this eg play a drum track and then play a percussion track and get them to playback simultaneously using Sonar.

After getting (paying) an "expert" to show me more or less the technique described above I cannot believe how complicated this seemingly simple task is. I'd have thought the TD8 could do this handily - guess I was wrong. Being somewhat a computer geek (own my own PC company and specialize in DAWS) I would think it shouldn't be too difficult for Roland to put out new firmware to enable this function easily - this really doesn't seem like a hardware deal. Maybe if we scream loud enough.........

Gery

[MarkRajcok]

Another way to record percussion parts using the TD-8 pads

Originally posted by klp
HEY THIS CAN BE DONE!!

It is possible to sequence one drumset part and play along with it with another drumset (on a TD-8). Here's how:...

One limitation with this approach is that you can only trigger about 15 sounds using pads/cymbals:
4 toms, 3 cymbals, 2 from snare (head and rim), 1 kick, 3 from hi-hat (open, closed, pedal), 1 aux (the other aux is tom4), and 1 from kick-2 (this assumes you have the kick and aux jacks split).

True, you could get up to 8 more sounds by assigning to the rims of the toms, cymbals, and hi-hat. But I don't have rims on my toms, cymbals, or hi-hat. Someone once posted they used the preview button to record sounds assigned to rims (I assume in loop mode) -- pretty ingenious. But the preview button and the rims don't really have dynamics (ok, the preview has 3 fixed volume/velocity settings, and you can sometimes get some dynamics out of a rim hit, but in either case it's nothing like a pad or cymbal). But hey, maybe that's fine for a cowbell -- normally you want that at a constant volume/velocity.

Anyway, for me it's essentially a 15-sound limit.

So, using the procedures outlined above, we can set and then record somewhere between 15-23 sounds on a kit. Next, we copy these over to the percussion part. But, we have to use the 15-23 MIDI note numbers of the pads/triggers (since that's what got copied over), meaning that we can't use the full percussion set range of 78 MIDI note numbers -- we're limited to the 23 (specified in the right-most column on p. 185 of the manual).

With 2 user percussion sets (sets 11 and 12), we could then record sequences with 30-46 unique sounds (15-23 per user percussion set). One caveat, only 15-23 can be played at time, since a pattern can only be assigned one percussion set.

Not bad... maybe 30-46 sounds is plenty. But, I think I found a way to get all 78! But it's no less complicated than the above method, and it requires a (single) MIDI cable.

I've been toying with this for a few weeks, so what I present below may need some work/help/tweaking, but here's the basic idea: we use a loop-around MIDI connection to cause the TD-8 to be both the MIDI transmitter and MIDI receiver... we program each pad to send out whatever of the 78 MIDI note numbers we want, and then we record -- DIRECTLY to the percussion part! (no copying needed). Ok, in detail:

1. Setup, F2-MIDI, F1-Global, G3-Page3, set Soft Thru OFF (this is very important to do BEFORE you connect the MIDI cable, or you'll get a horrendous feedback/continuous loop sound -- I tried it just to hear what would happen.)
2. Connect a single MIDI cable to the IN and OUT ports on the back of the TD-8
3. Now we need to set the MIDI note numbers we'll transmit -- this is a PER KIT setting, which is really cool, because we can define a bunch different sets of MIDI note numbers to send. So, pick a kit, select a pad/cymbal (Tom-1 for our example), then, hit F1, F2, F3 (INST, EDIT, MIDI). Now, turn to pages 184 and 185 in the manual and select a sound/MIDI note number... let's pick CAXIXI, which has a MIDI note number of 96. At this point, make sure the percussion set is set to "1" (stndrd1). I think the easiest way to do this is to hit the PATTERN button and ensure you have the percussion part set to set 1. You can pick an unused user pattern and set it to 1 (Pattern, Part, Setup, page 1, second row).

Ok, at this point, you should be able hit the Tom and hear BOTH the tom sound and the Caxixi sound! (If it didn't work, something's wrong. If you hear 55CLAVES or SCAT4 VS or something else, it may be because you have some percussion set selected other than "1" (stndrd1)).

Repeat the above for all the sounds you want to record.

4. Record a user pattern. After recording, delete the Kit part, because when you recorded, it recorded both the Kit and the Percussion part. Anyone know how to only record the percussion part?

5. Disconnect the MIDI cable (just one jack is enough), and play your pattern! If you don't disconnect one end of the MIDI cable, you'll hear double sounds (which may be fine while you're editing/recoring).

There are two tricks you might want to try to only hear the percussion part when recording. (1) Turn the sliders down for all the kit parts -- then you'll only hear the backing part. (2) Turn MIDI local control OFF (Setup, F2, F1, page 1) -- but you'll have to turn it on again soon, so I don't recommend this, but that's how I started before I thought of the sliders.

Two more tips:
(1) I noticed that I had to set the sensitivity (Setup, Trig, ... somewhere in there is the sensitivity setting) up a little higher on my pads to get the percussion parts to record louder.
(2) I once couldn't get the percussion part to sound properly in step 3. -- I think I had to select another user pattern, or switch/cycle between the percussion sets, or was it unplug the MIDI cable and replug it in again??? Anyway, if it doesn't work the first time, try it again.

So, with 2 user percussion sets, we get up to 156 sounds! ("only" 78 at a time).

Last comment, I can't believe Roland didn't include a LO conga sound or a HI timbale sound in the percussion kits! What good is only half the instrument?!

[glaker]

Whoa.......~

Pretty ingenious indeed.

Just the same, friggin' complicated (for me anyways - I do two things well - overclock PC's and play music, drums especially)

Here's my crude but effective way of accomplishing this.

Record a scratch drumtrack as audio, and then record the percussion track as another audio track. Then I'll go back and go for the "keeper" drum track - still audio.

Drag that I haven't haven't taken the time to figure out the above procedures - would give me alot more flexibility in terms of changing sounds and all that other good stuff MIDI's good for.....but really I can't be bothered. I don't know the software (Sonar) well enough to just turn on my PC and make music whenever I'm inspired, and having to learn this seemingly complicated procedure's too much for me.

I love my TD8 don't get me wrong, but I probably only use like 15% of it's capability. I made a user kit I can live with and use it. I don't even know how to get the sequencer to work. And honestly I wouldn't trade it for my acoustic kit anytime anyhow.

I still hope Roland comes out with some firmwarte to make this easy,,,,,,,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Gery