continued v-ride tweaking saga

[mudyax]

Hey guys,

I wanted to contact a couple of you individually (in particular snills and a few others), but many of you have not listed email addresses...so I'll just go live with my question and hope for comprehensive and diverse feedback.

Recently, I posted my experience with "shimming" my v-ride bell with a circular piece of rubber effluent tubing. It worked great at first, but shortly thereafter resulted in such an increase in sensitivity that the bow was firing the bell intermittently...but enough to be unacceptable for practical purposes. So, I removed it and cut the shim to extend only from about the 10-2 oclock position. This stopped the bow from triggering the ride, but now I have differing and sometimes inconsistent volumes on the bell....with the 6 oclock position being louder and more sensitive than the 3 and 9 oclock positions (where I usually work the ride). The sensitivity is still good though. Weird.

Now, I am wondering if I really should just be shimming that approx. 2 inches around the 6 oclock position, as originally shown in the picture posted by snills? Snills (and others), my questions are...should the shim be right under the strike zone for optimum effect? And is it wise to apply tape directly to that circular trigger?

I am still getting far better sensitivity than without the shim...even though I am having these anomalous volume/sensitivity issues. I'd prefer these issues though to having to beat the hell out of the bell, as before. But, I'd prefer to just get it right the many of you have reported

As usual, any and all insight most appreciated. Thanks a bunch!!

[Snills]

Hi Mudyax,
Just a guess but, I wonder if you used too much tape or overlapped pieces of tape. That would explain "too much sensitivity".

> Question: Now, I am wondering if I really should just be shimming that approx. 2 inches around the 6 oclock position, as originally shown in the picture posted by snills?

Answer: Like you said, I would try 2-4, 2" pieces of tape right in front, then try it before snapping the skin down and adjust as necessary.

I think we can assume that the Bell's FSR\Switch by it self, has the same sensitivity all the way around the bell, so you could tape anywhere you want in order to trigger the bell sound. But keep in mind that the closer you are to the piezo (front and center) the more potential Volume you'll have to play with compared to the bow sound.

Also, if you overlap peices of tape, you might cause strange "hot & cold spots" on the bell.

>Question: And is it wise to apply tape directly to that circular trigger?

Answer: I don't follow you...where else can you could put the tape but on the Bell's FSR itself. Again were just trying to fill the gap between the skin and the circular FSR's surface.

Good luck,
I'll check back soon.
Bill

[Electrode]

The 6 o'clock position on the bell is the trigger hot spot. This is the most sensitive part of the bell, as it is where the trigger is actually situated.

So naturally, that part will have the highest sensitivity. Try twisting the ride cymbal to the left/right 90 degrees, depending on whether you want to work the bell at the 3 or 9 o'clock positions.

[mudyax]

Hey guys,

As usual, thanks for the great advice. It was all very useful. However, I devitated just a bit from what appears to be working for you guys.

I got on a good case of bravery on this morning and ripped my v-ride apart again (hoping it would be my last time). I played around with shimming a number of positions using, as per snills' et al. recommendation, two-four 2" pieces of tape (black electrical tape, in this case).

I started with the 6 oclock position and tested that. The response was non-existent at the 3 and 9 positions and very intermittent and unreliable even at the 6 position. Yes, I was quite surprised buy this discovery as well.

Next, I went with two-four 2" pieces of tape at the 3 oclock position and then tested. I got great sensitivity and nice, crisp firing of the bell when playing that position, but got very little at the 6 position and nothing at all (unless I laid into it with the shoulder) at the 9 position. Further, because I used 4 pieces of tape, I was getting intermittent choking occurring when I would strike lower on the bell (e.g. when playing very fast and bouncing down around the bell/bow interface spot). So, I backed off a piece of tape and tested again. Fortunately, everything worked sweet this time.

I then decided that I wanted the option of riding the bell at the 9 oclock position (palm down) on some tunes/patterns as well, so I opened her back up. I repeated the tape configuration in the 9 position that I found to be successful previously at the 3 position and closed her back up and tested. The result was the same as for the 3 postion...so I ended up with very nice, sensitive and crisp triggering "symmetry" about the bell....so that I now have the luxury of working the 3 and 9 positions at my discretion with being able to count on the same response either way. So, I am very excited about this. Now, the question is....will it last?

As for my adhesive concerns: Snills...I was really trying to get at the concept of using a piece of thin rubber in contact with the FSR itself and holding it down with a couple of pieces of tape laid across the FSR "channel" such that the adhesive was not in physical contact with the FSR. I don't think I made myself very clear on this. Sorry about that. Regardles, that approach failed, as I got chronic cymbal choking with that configuration....too thick a shim, I suppose. Similar to feef's experience with the shoe box cardboard shim maybe?

My final tape configuration solution? I stuck two 2" pieces of electrical tape together such that the two adhesive faces were in contact, leaving non-adhesive surfaces on top and bottom (e.g. no adhesive in contact with the FSR once applied). I laid this "tape sandwich" (if you will) on the FSR and then taped that down with two, 1" pieces of tape side-by-side....running perpendicular to the "tape sandwich" (e.g. over the FSR "channel" and again, no adhesive contact with the FSR). What the heck is this region called again? Anyway, I went 2 pieces deep on the attachment tape at first (total of 4 pieces deep now), but this led to the "hot and cold spot" phenomenon to which you guys allude. I removed 2 of the 1" side-by-side pieces (total of 3 pieces deep now) and tried again and it seemed to work beautifully this time, with no compromise of sensitivity in the bow region.

So, in the final "mudyax v-ride shim configuration," I went 3 pieces of tape deep at the 3 and 9 positions and arranged the tape such that no adhesive is in contact with the FSR. There is a bit of overlap in the tape that I used to tape down my "tape sandwich" perpendicular to the FSR though. This may cause problems in the future. But, so far, so good....and at least now I will know what to look for (and do) when/if it occurs.

So, for better or for worse, there is the benefit of my foray into V-ride surgery. I hope my experience is valuable to the v-drum community. And, once again, snills, feef, electrode et al.....THANKS A BUNCH! You guys rule! And vdrums.com, well, goes without saying Rock on!

[acidbran]

I don't know..........
For the money these things cost there should be none of this much tweaking.
I am still going to wait a while before I get any of these.
Good luck though.

[shawnguess]

i say buy a hart for half the price and be done -- but thats just me. although i do understand the tweaker mentality that its mostly about principal and not function at this point. . . . . "i have to beat it and make it succumb (sp?) to my tweaking powers". ive been there a hundred times.

[mudyax]

I hear you guys and understand your reservations. However, although I am livid at roland right now for serving up what I view as a "defective" product in this small regard, I have to agree with feef. It may seem like a lot of hassle from my detailed account. However, it really was not. I tested many combinations of tape, positioning, depth, layering etc....thus, I made it a bit more complicated than I likely needed too. But, it's all about tweaking the thing to your liking. As feef pointed out, drummers do it with other gear all the time (e.g. snare drums, tom dampening, muffling etc.).

I could have left the bell alone and it would have still been superior to anything else on the market, IMHO anyway. But, that was not enough for me personally. I wanted more....so, thanks to feef, snills and the many other adventurous vdrummers who helped out, I dove in and went for the ultimate tweak

Don't get me wrong though....again, I am still seething over roland and their releasing a product that could be better with such MINISCULE effort and for providing lousy technical support after the sale of this product (and not to mention burying their heads in the sand on the matter of the existence of vdrums.com and denying that the cymbal does not function any better, despite releasing a marketing video demonstrating the ease with which the bell is triggered...but another thread for another day, right?). But feef is right....there is simply no substitute on the market at present.

You hart guys....hey, I've owned a half dozen of them myself....and, at the time, I thought they were the s*&#. But, I quickly realized they were not and now they are sitting in boxes in my studio (and will become part ofa practice kit I am assembling from cast off parts). Compared to the v's though, they simply suck. Sorry. Call em like I see em. However, I will grant you that the newer generation hart cymbals are greatly improved and that they appear to be going in the right direction. Still no comparison though. From what I've seen to date (and given my experience with the v-cymbals), if I was going to go with "cheaper" cymbals now, the visu-lites appear to be a reasonable compromise. I've got a couple of cy-6's too...and they have served me pretty well for far more affordable. Just my US$0.025 worth

Rock on guys!

[Snills]

Well,
I kinda have to agree with shawnguess. For me, It's all about tweaking. I have always loved tearing into stuff just to see how it worked. Or create new ways to get something working outside of it's intended functionality.

I install\repair Hi-tech semiconductor equipment for as living and for me, there's a kind of "rush" when you fix stuff, or discover something new. I used to have fun tweaking my Acoustic kit but E-drums are a perfect toy for me because they combine technolgy with music. Plenty of tweaking going on now.

When I pulled my V-ride apart the first time, knowing that it had most likely not been done before, I knew I could possibly loose functionality. At that time, it wasn't such a simple task. I knew I'd have to rely on my "tweaking powers" as Shawnguess said, to get through it.

Bill

Originally posted by shawnguess:
i say buy a hart for half the price and be done -- but thats just me. although i do understand the tweaker mentality that its mostly about principal and not function at this point. . . . . "i have to beat it and make it succumb (sp?) to my tweaking powers". ive been there a hundred times.

[acidbran]

I guess my point was more like ..... if it is such an easy tweak, why wasn't it done already?
Was the ride tested at all in the real world?
If so much fiddling has to be done then I feel it's not a finished product...

As far as taping up heads and such, we are talking "acoustics" not a trigger for sampled sounds, big difference me thinks.

I never use tape and when an engineer starts to open his/her mouth, I say I will if the guitarist coats the strings with nylon.

Don't mess with my sound or my stuff!

[mudyax]

Good idea feef,

I went about half way on this when I made my maiden voyage to roland technical support. I told them what was going on here on vdrums and all of the difficulty drummers were having and the "fixes" they were reporting. He was nothing but smug and said "don't believe everything you hear..." and "....the cymbal is designed to be struck hard..." "...there is no "fix" planned by roland...bla bla bla bla..." In short, he was a total ass. I should have followed up the chain, as you suggest. But, did not. I may still though. It has pissed me off sufficiently and I am not the type to let things go. I'll let you know what happens

Keep on tweakin babe!