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An interesting exercise....

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  • An interesting exercise....

    If you are like me, you stop by the Vdrums forum at least once per day and catch up. I always hit the DIY forum to see what's cookin' in the minds of the fabulous DIY community here. The problem is, sometimes it's a bit like waiting for the next episode of your favorite show to come on, which makes for a long week. So, whether you are new to the forums or you've been around for a while, I have an interesting exercise for you. Sort the forum topics in reverse order, oldest to newest, and jump into the fantastic journey that has brought us thus far. You'll read about some groundbreaking conversion ideas, contributed by the likes of JmanWord and Hiroshi, as they made their first foray into DIY. It's like watching kids on Christmas morning. Some of the picture links are long gone but the spirit of DIY is in full bloom. Very educational and worth the read.
    Roland TD12 module / DIY Kit in progress, Gretsch Blackhawk A (soon to be E) kit.

  • #2
    Had some time to kill and had a browse through the old threads. Didn't have time to look at all of them but there's some very interesting reading! I'll be sure to check through some of those ancient threads again.

    What struck me the most is this: there are a number of threads that talk about whether to buy stuff or DIY it, and the overwhelming consensus was "DIY it!" and not just talking about buying commercial pads and whatnot, but this was also the response when people wondered whether to get any of the conversion kits that were around. People made their own cones, mesh heads, crossbars, cymbal conversions, etc... there was a general atmosphere of enthusiasm for DIY-ing stuff as opposed to just going out and buying it. The feeling I have nowadays is that as soon as someone asks about cones, triggers, etc, the response is "just buy it".

    A couple of examples: a few months ago, a member asked if anyone had tried to do a DIY harness trigger. I posted a picture of one I'd done and the thread was flooded with posts trying to discourage this person from even attempting it, some even making accusations of "disrespect for other people's work" (the irony of saying that in this -a DIY- forum just blew me away) and repeatedly insisting that they buy one - I mean, come on. The other example is more recent. A member has been asking about how to convert a kit and has stated that they have a limited budget. In a thread with over 100 posts, not a single one mentions the fact that you can make yourself a very reliable and perfectly functional side-mounted trigger for 1/20th of the price of the commercial one being marketed to them (assuming they don't want to go into cake pans and other more involved -but likewise much cheaper- alternatives). "Well, why don't you?" you may ask - well, it's got to a point that I feel that it's become Politically Incorrect to mention any DIY alternative to the kits and parts that are marketed on this forum, and I have a feeling that others sense this too...

    Very sorry if I veered OT with the lengthy rant... But going through the old posts just confirmed something I'd been suspecting for some time...
    Megadrum module, DIY A2E pads, DIY 2 & 3-zone cymbals, DIY hall-effect 3-zone hi-hat, El Cheapo buttkicker, DIY trigger beaters on DIY longboard/direct drive modded pedals. DIY IEMs. Some kit pics/history.

    Comment


    • #3
      I guess it's thread you're referring to? And yeah it seems that, while some people do still build their own harnesses and trigger, the term DIY has lost it's true meaning and now more likely refers to "buy a bunch of third party parts and assemble them". I'm not saying that it's anything wrong with any of the ways to build your own kit, I myself will go with the buy-third-party-and-assemble route due to me being one of the least handy persons alive But yeah, there's not THAT many real DIY projects in the DIY section.

      Comment


      • ignotus
        ignotus commented
        Editing a comment

      • TheYardbird
        TheYardbird commented
        Editing a comment
        Yeah, the amount of real DIY project has probably decreased because of all the new smaller companies that makes all kinds of things you'd need. Not that it's a bad thing like you said, people like me needs people to make stuff for us x) When we're talking ''real'' DIY stuff I always come to think of this: http://www.vdrums.com/forum/forum/pe...it-DIY/page13=
        Rasoo's kit in that thread is absolutely stunning!

    • #4
      Something worth mentioning is this: When this "DIY" forum was created, there wasn't a "been-there-done-that" crowd. No one (outside commercial entities) had done any of it. Every new discovery seemed groundbreaking. Every new method, material, and source was a big deal. Since then, so much has been figured out, documented, and endlessly batted around that not much seems new anymore.

      What I don't like to see in the DIY forum is discouragement. Fact is, not everyone is cutout for DIY. So guiding someone, who by their own admission isn't handy, to a good build thread or even a ready made solution is fine. If someone comes seeking advice, obviously they should be open to constructive criticism, but don't squash their drive to reinvent the wheel. Why dissuade someone from taking their own road, just because someone has already done what they are attempting? That may sound ridiculous but the wheel has in fact been reinvented thousands of times over. Initially every A to E (Roland style) conversion was done with the crossbar method, right up until a light went of in ChromeBoy's head. If he'd shared his idea with JmanWord and Jman had said, "hey that'll never work, why don't you checkout my crossbar method instead.", we'd have missed out on something good. Instead, they collaborated and the and the cake pan method was ushered into existence. What's the next big thing? Who knows? What I do know is someone who chooses the path less traveled is more likely to find it than someone who walks in others footsteps, and those who collaborate are more likely still.
      Roland TD12 module / DIY Kit in progress, Gretsch Blackhawk A (soon to be E) kit.

      Comment


      • #5
        I think discouragement might be too strong of a word. Having been here more than a few years I have seen a number of people come up with a "new" idea that isn't new and they'll get feedback. That feedback might be of the form "You're forgetting about X and that makes what you want to do very difficult. Try this instead, it's much easier." I don't consider that discouragement, I consider it someone offering up the benefit of their experience to save the OP some time and money,

        As far as offering up commercial alternatives, some of that, I believe, is a well-intentioned attempt at saving the OP time (versus money). When I did my big DIY kit a few years ago, some folks told me how I could make my own mesh heads and some said to just buy some commercial ones. I didn't need to save every possible penny but I do have a limited budget of time so I went with commercial heads. No one ever said to me "DON'T make your own heads". Granted, there are some people who are particularly enamored of a given commercial product because it works so well for them that they will endorse the living s*** out of it, but it's not like anything is mandated. Quite honestly, I like it when a bunch of people say "You have to try this, it's way better than making your own". If I see a consensus and it makes sense to me, I'll give it a try. The only time I've seen active discouragement is if the OP is way out in left field and is suffering from misconceptions on how things work. At that point I believe that people discourage simply to help the OP avoid obvious loss of time and money.

        Comment


        • #6
          This is the thread my first example referred to: http://www.vdrums.com/forum/forum/ad...rigger-harness

          There is what I'd call "active discouragement" in the first half of that thread. Still, it's just one instance of this happening so maybe I was being a little shrill - it's not as if each new DIY attempt gets shouted down and frowned upon.
          I wasn't so much talking about "new" ideas being discouraged - as you say Jim, it's good if people see flaws in a new idea and point them out, it's the way to improve things- but rather it seems that the DIY ideas that have been proven and tested to work well (crossbars, cakepans, DIY cones, triggers, etc.) have taken a back seat in favour of ready-made commercial products. Of course, not everyone wants to go through the trial/error process and prefer to just save themselves some time and spend a bit more on something they know will just work, that's fine. What I guess I'm trying to get at is that, looking at the old threads, there has been a big shift in attitude. It's no one's fault, it's just the way things are and it'd be naive to "wish it was like in the old days".
          Megadrum module, DIY A2E pads, DIY 2 & 3-zone cymbals, DIY hall-effect 3-zone hi-hat, El Cheapo buttkicker, DIY trigger beaters on DIY longboard/direct drive modded pedals. DIY IEMs. Some kit pics/history.

          Comment


          • #7
            I don't think there's an overwhelming attitude of negativity or discouragement permeating the DIY forum. It might seem so at times because there doesn't seem to be the same encouraging, positive attitude of yesteryear. That's not to say encouragement and excitement are absent altogether, just that it would be nice to see a little more of them. Personally, I'd like to encourage more show-your-work "build" threads. That's what really stokes my fire. Even if you're doing something that's been done hundreds of times, take some pics and share it with us. You should be proud of your work and expect nothing but support from the great folks in this forum.
            Roland TD12 module / DIY Kit in progress, Gretsch Blackhawk A (soon to be E) kit.

            Comment


            • #8
              A few interesting points from the DIY harness thread that ignotus posted:

              Disclaimer: If I've taken something out of context or misrepresented you, I apologize. I'm just trying to point out some things from the thread.

              Posted by FakeBruno:
              This is a hobby of mine and I can't get myself to pay myself so I can't factor in time or effort-- its currently just based on material costs for me.
              Some folks, especially those in their first DIY e-drum experiment, are unwilling to, or unable to, spend a lot of money in the process. They'd rather build or re-purpose things to minimize investment into a possible failure. They would rather sacrifice their time and effort rather than money. This is an important thing to consider when you give advice. In my own experience, I built everything inside my first e-drum snare because I wasn't confident that it would work in the end. It was my proof of concept experiment. After that, I was more eager to do a professional looking job, and buying some components vs. building everything made more sense to me. (As a result, I've invested a fair sum of money into the components and the kits I've built, and it's just a hobby.)

              Posted by demonocus:
              i went with the quartz harness because i am lazy and just want to spend my time playing drums not building drums and the quartz harness works real good and it was very quick and easy to put together and it was cheap too anyway that's my 2 cents
              Good point here. Many folks want to save time, save money, and play drums, period. Nothing wrong with that. Ready made solutions offer these folks a lot of value.

              Posted by KennyinDundee:
              I would prefer to spend time and energy building some of the more aesthetic aspects of my diy drums rather than worrying about creating reliable trigger components within the trigger system. Quartz components are cheap and reliable. Making my own foam cones when i dont have the equipment is not really how I want to spend what little and precious diy/drum time.
              Posted by fulrmr(Daniel):
              I use Quartz parts for all my builds. I look at this way....They are inexpensive...proven and consistent. There are so many variables when it comes to DIY and making your own cones(size/shape/material), picking from the myriad of piezos out there, etc...that I just want something reliable that doesn't break the bank or delay my project.
              Good points here too. There are many aspects of a DIY project to focus on. Not many of us have a surplus of time to do everything. Buying some things can help us make it to the finish line in reasonable time, get reliable results, and stay married, employed, etc.

              Posted by Chuckytuh:
              Even though you are free to build it for personal purposes and being this the DIY section there's something that I would call "respect for others work" and on the particular case of Quartz products my explanation is that the seller (Sorry I can't remember the name) as given a lot to this community and ,being a small enterprise with such low prices, the usual is to buy from him because you'll have a good product that works correctly.
              Posted by fulrmr(Daniel):
              The harness is a convenience that Sylvain came up for his parts to help out the less DIY skilled and the players that wish to convert an expensive kit without worry of damage...while still being able to easily and quickly convert back and forth between acoustic and electronic for whatever application their situation dictates.

              I see no harm or foul in trying to create things from scratch for your own for personal use...DIY is of course...DIY....and folks have been reverse engineering others tech for years for this purpose.
              What I take from these comments is an assurance that I'm free to build by own cones, harnesses, etc., but If I'm considering competition with quartz, a respected member, that won't be acceptable. Not discouraging DIY, but discouraging use of someone's ideas in for-profit endeavors. I have no idea whether Sylvain has patented or otherwise protected his harness but this community likes to protect their own, so to speak.

              Posted by FakeBruno:
              Respect to creators work was mentioned earlier. I have none. If its an idea I like, I'm gonna take it. Heck it might give me an idea to improve it. In the end I saved money getting what I want.
              Anyway, thought I would contribute to the DIY community.
              This statement by the OP reminds me, that we often encroach on patented territory when we DIY. There might be some original ideas as well but most of those aren't protected. We readily glean from the success (and failures) of others. That's why we have a forum to discuss it.

              Posted by ignotus:
              Made this with: duct tape, small piece of velcro, a sanding block, a small piece of plastic from an old tupperware container and a stapler. Oh, and a piezo of course (;

              Not as pro looking as Quartz's harness and I can't say if it'll perform as well with PS, but if you're on a budget it can be another -of the many- alternatives there are.
              ​Inspiration for the OP to draw upon.

              Posted by FakeBruno:
              I made 5 of them for less then $30:

              For rim the trigger I built a little disk to sit on and mounted it to the shell. This system works very well together.
              The OP taking his own road and sharing his interpretation of the trigger harness.

              Posted by fulrmr(Daniel):
              Hobbies and DIY are great fun. There is almost no idea that DIYers have not gleaned from to build their own kits.

              KUDOS! .....to the originators and all those that build upon their innovations!
              Support for the OP and his take on the harness.

              For the most part, this community is supportive and eager to answer questions for anyone, eager to share ideas and offer suggestions to those who ask, and willing to debate topics and maintain respect for others in the process. Truth be known, the DIY forum and those who frequent it, are the biggest reason I'm a member here.
              Roland TD12 module / DIY Kit in progress, Gretsch Blackhawk A (soon to be E) kit.

              Comment


              • #9
                I lost track...what are we talking about in this topic....?
                Jim said it in an eloquent way, and said all there is to say, really!


                If someone asks for advice in a forum, there's only so much actions that can take place:

                1. say 'Yes, do it!'
                2. say 'I wouldn't do it!'
                3. Point-out the difficulties / inconsistencies to the questioner
                4. Ignore the question completely

                or even worse

                5. Post something that doesn't help the OP at all.
                Like a a silly comment (...or even a comment that ridicules/intimidates him - a practice that I strongly discourage people to do on this very forum! .. go to the Behringer fan-forum, if you want to do that!)





                Is the question at hand why we are pointing people towards 'commercially available' solutions, rather than DIY-threads?

                - because "we can, that's why!"
                - because things like a Quartz cone don't cost 'the whole world'
                - because certain products have been tested thoroughfully, and are tried and true-driving
                - because not everyone has the patience to sew their own mesh heads
                - because you'll save time that you could use for ...image this.... Playing the drums!!
                - because a tiny bit of hammering and screwing is easier to pull off than welding, casting and powder-coating
                - because as soon as there is some heavy and fance usage of a drill involved, things could potentially life-threatening/-endangering
                - because some people are like yours-truly a two-left-handed, technical dum-dum [insert your favorite word Here], that shouldn't look at a drill (...nor even possibly think about using a drill...)










                Sidenote

                - You can tell now probably that I'm afraid of drills....


                - It is truly amazing, how one small word (...and its sheer amount of variations in...) can bring a huge smile on my face... .Pick your favorite!








                HTH


                "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

                Comment


                • #10
                  If you want some good laughs with a lot of truth sprinkled in, read this thread started by JmanWord back in '08. I understand where he's coming from and I have no doubt that "true innovators" (clueless newbs) like myself, get on the nerves of the more seasoned veterans from time to time. Most often when we "put the cart before the horse" to borrow a quote from the thread. The entire thread is a good read but the sincerity in post #36 sums it all up in my opinion. I would still be drooling over Roland and Yamaha flagships in the latest gear catalog where it not for this DIY community and the support offered here.

                  Roland TD12 module / DIY Kit in progress, Gretsch Blackhawk A (soon to be E) kit.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Interesting to read that old DIY thread. I'm glad you started this topic. It is a good read! While I still believe it is very important to be familiar with how the Edrum module and stock pads perform in order to DIY your own eDrums, I would not want to discourage the DIY spirit here for sure. And what is kind of ironic: while it is important to understand how a drum module works and the stock pads I can pretty much guaranty that a person will learn more about adjusting trigger parameters and generally learn more about their edrum module and pads in a few weeks DIYing Edrums than they would normally discover in a few years with a plug n play Ekit. That is exactly what happened with me. It forces you to actually read the manual and learn exactly how adjustments and parameters work and how to apply that to your build.... what's that old saying? Necessity is the mother of invention. Finding solutions to the problems along the way causes improvements and new ideas to keep flowing in DIY.

                    Vdrums.com has been on the forward edge of DIY Edrum ideas on the net since the DIY forum began here. The wheel has been reinvented over and over, partly due to the huge amount of DIY threads covering 7 or 8 years, and just how difficult it is to search all of those threads out. But new ideas do keep coming.

                    OK, enough nostalgia .... back to the brutal real world for me.

                    I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
                    Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Pearl Mimic Pro ,2Box modules,drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds directly from the Mimic and custom sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by bwilburn79 View Post

                      What I take from these comments is an assurance that I'm free to build by own cones, harnesses, etc., but If I'm considering competition with quartz, a respected member, that won't be acceptable. Not discouraging DIY, but discouraging use of someone's ideas in for-profit endeavors. I have no idea whether Sylvain has patented or otherwise protected his harness but this community likes to protect their own, so to speak.
                      I think this is a very good point. If a member of this community does some work, shares it and also sells it, it is not ethical for another member of the community to take that work and resell it. I don't think most people have an issue with another member taking what the first person shared and using it for themselves, but turning around and selling it is a cheat. The first person did, after all, share the work with the community and essentially gives the community the option to buy if you don't want to bother doing it from scratch yourself.

                      I will make a comparison in the textbook publishing world. As many of you might be aware, college texts have gotten very expensive. Many professors now self-publish works as open educational resources. I've done 6 engineering titles myself. Students get free books and other professors get more choices. Typically, authors use a Creative Commons license. This allows them to retain ownership (copyright) and specify how the works may be used. Like many people, I use a share-alike/attribution/non-commercial license. Anyone can use the work for whatever purpose, including expanding it or taking just parts of it as long as my work is credited to me, except for commercial purposes. IOW, no one else can legally sell my work or works based on it.

                      I think that is a nice community-supportive model.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by bwilburn79 View Post

                        What I take from these comments is an assurance that I'm free to build by own cones, harnesses, etc., but If I'm considering competition with quartz, a respected member, that won't be acceptable. Not discouraging DIY, but discouraging use of someone's ideas in for-profit endeavors. I have no idea whether Sylvain has patented or otherwise protected his harness but this community likes to protect their own, so to speak.

                        Originally posted by JimFiore View Post

                        I think this is a very good point. If a member of this community does some work, shares it and also sells it, it is not ethical for another member of the community to take that work and resell it. I don't think most people have an issue with another member taking what the first person shared and using it for themselves, but turning around and selling it is a cheat.



                        Gentlemen,
                        I'm curious how this works the 'other way around':


                        If we take a design of a commercial product and use it for ourselves, it seems okay.
                        But what if a community-design was to be taken by a commercial company and used by themselves, as well?

                        If the community comes up with a design, a build, a text ...and this is turned into commercial profit (not by another community-member, but by a bigger company) then what?


                        Is it patented... protected... refuted... contested... ethical... or cheat? What applies from all that has been said so far?








                        "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                        http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Dear Sirs.
                          Everyone here can find his way. Some benefit more than others and some provide ideas , suggestions, and all sorts of tricks to improve various situations surrounding electronic drums in general. Some influential members of this commonality unnamed reap some pecuniary profits. By cons , without knowing the number of members , I think a small nucleus of participants help to support the interests of all others. The fact that some independent contractors like me taking advantage of this forum chock some worried. All further discrete members receive technical support they can rarely find anywhere else but here . I personally answer every day to many questions by emails that result can be only once in ten to a sale. The rest is voluntary contribution.
                          By the way, although I do not spit on the money and I prefer to make a sale , I 'm still flattered when someone wants to copy my harness for personal use.
                          Regards.

                          Sylvain.
                          Questions or order at http://quartzpercussions.com/ or [email protected]


                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by hairmetal-81 View Post

                            Gentlemen,
                            I'm curious how this works the 'other way around':


                            If we take a design of a commercial product and use it for ourselves, it seems okay.
                            But what if a community-design was to be taken by a commercial company and used by themselves, as well?

                            If the community comes up with a design, a build, a text ...and this is turned into commercial profit (not by another community-member, but by a bigger company) then what?

                            Is it patented... protected... refuted... contested... ethical... or cheat? What applies from all that has been said so far?
                            This is a strong argument for community-based projects to use a Creative Commons license. Whether a 3rd party is ethical or not by taking something created by a community and turning it into private profit depends on the intent of said community. A community may decide that they don't want a 3rd party making money off of their effort. In contrast, they might not care if someone makes a profit because their primary motivation is in getting the stuff "out there". Both approaches have merit. Here's an example of each:

                            1. As previously mentioned, I use a non-commercial CC license for my written works. Why? Because it would just be too damn easy for a 3rd party to grab them and offer them for sale with minimal work on their part. They could grab a large number of similar titles and, with some "creative web work", dominate the search engine results. Many people wouldn't even know they could get these materials for free. Basically, the 3rd party adds nothing of value but rides the work of others for their personal gain. I don't think that's ethical. My father used to say that one of the great issues of society is when one man says to another "You work to grow the wheat and bake the bread but I shall eat it." Where's the fairness in that?

                            2. Consider Arduino: open source hardware and software. They don't limit 3rd parties. They want the Arduino development platform to be as widely available as possible and if 3rd parties want to create add-ons or their own boards, that's great. I think for them, this is an ideal model. The 3rd party is adding something to the mix. They're not just repackaging. They become part of the community and that's an important distinction compared to the 3rd party in example 1.

                            It is worth noting that for the originators of the works in these two examples, profit is not a major issue. Neither is "in it for the money". They're in it for what it does for the community. Granted, the Arduino folks have to cover their costs but I doubt any of the original crew are getting rich off of it.


                            Of course, if the community patents or copyrights the material with all rights reserved, any 3rd party using it commercially is breaking the law (at least in the USA) and appropriate legal means may be pursued against them whether or not anyone thinks what the 3rd party did is ethical.
                            Last edited by JimFiore; 02-01-14, 06:21 PM.

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