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Drop-in Dual Zone Trigger Collaboration ChromeBoy/JmanWord

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  • JmanWord
    replied
    Bearing Edge Protection

    Yeah, I don't see a problem with the mesh wearing on the pan any more than on a drum rim. OK ... I've embedded a few pics in this post. You can see with the weather strip in the pics and the pic of the extra threads on my stock drum lugs/screws that there is ample room to add protection for the bearing edge. I have already added the protection, taken the drum apart, put thinner clear 2 sided tape on the rim piezo to increase response, also removed the thicker 2 inch stripping and replaced with a couple layers of some thinner rubber/electrical insulation tape. All these changes meant some changes in trigger parameters ... the pan became more sensitive so I had to decrease both rimshot adjust and rim gain. Although the parameters are a little different the result is basically the same... with a very slight improvement on rimshot sensitivity. And the bearing edge is now protected like the baby's bottom in a nice soft diaper.

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  • Hellfire
    replied
    Originally posted by ChromeBoy View Post
    Hey Tom.

    I just looked at Hellfire's X4L pads. I assume that's the build you're talking about. Awesome! Pretty much the same concept, I think. I little different platform and foam shape. Great work Hellfire!

    The neat thing about Hellfire's pad is that it is a complete DIY solution, right down to building the drum mount rather than buying a piece of hardware. Very cool. I think that design could lend itself to cool visual customizing too. Using a router to cut custom designs in the bottom sides of the bases, maybe using nice plywood (or veneer) and refinishing the pad base to match a lacquered or stained acoustic kit. A nice way to integrate a couple of e-pads into an A set and maintain the look. It might be tough to match exactly, but you could probably get close with patience and the right stain or dye.

    I think there are lots of variations you could employ with a design like this. A couple of different reflection plate versions come to mind immediately. One version could use a foam column and the other could use a "sandwich" of foam discs and risers. (pics below)

    As for the pan hanging over the edge, I think there will be some variation based on the manufacturer of the pan, and the thickness of the shell. With my Cheap-o shells and pans, they basically sit directly on, just barely inside the top of the bearing edge.

    Daniel, the only thing to remember in terms of "an easier build" is that you can probably find crossbar parts in every small-town hardware store. The pans are not something I could find locally (or even regionally) in a retail store so I had to order them.
    This project looks great! Great job ChromeBoy. Thanks for the comments on the X4L. Since they were mentioned I thought I would post some pics of the updated verison. I call them ProX:



    Back to your drop in. Just an FYI, the brand of cake pan makes a difference. I looked into the idea of using this as a drop some time ago too but, the brand cake pans I used didn't fit very well. So I dropped the idea. Congrats on finding the right kind of pan. Jman your mods look great as well. Great job guys!
    Attached Files

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  • ChromeBoy
    replied
    Tom had asked about wear on the mesh heads. Actually, since I've only been using the drums this way for a couple of weeks, I can't be sure about the long term effects. I have checked the pans I bought and they seem well made and very smooth along the rims. However, I'd imagine even a tiny defect in the metal could easily damaged a mesh head, so you'd want to carefully inspect the pans and file down anything that looked problematic.
    Tom pointed me toward Hellfire's X4L pads earlier. It looks like he's been using those quite a while and the mesh appears to rest right on the edge of the pan. Hellfire may be able to better speculate what the pans+mesh might mean in terms of mesh head longevity. It seems OK on my build so far.

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  • ChromeBoy
    replied
    I wish I could claim it was all planned, but finding that the 9" pan fit in the shell was purely an accident. I inherited some cast-off cake pans from The Boss when she got new ones. I intended to use them for storing stuff in the shop; in fact the one that fell into the 10" drum was full of 3/8" nuts and bolts at the time
    That one had some small handles on the sides of it that stuck out too far, but the pan itself seemed to fit nicely in the shell. So, the next time we went to the store, I found a 2-pack of 9" pans like the ones I'm using now for less than $10. That was cheap enough that if they didn't work, I'd just use them to store more parts in the shop.
    I remember someone else doing a drop-in project recently using a raw speaker basket. I'm guessing that would work well too as long as you can find the frames in the proper sizes. You might be able to find them too by hitting some yard sales and buying old stereo speakers. The pans were just easy to get online, and for less than $70 I got enough of them to test the fit on all of my drums. And Jman found them cheaper than I did.

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  • JmanWord
    replied
    Originally posted by KnipeDrums View Post
    Is there any advantages with the drop in version than that of Hellfire's original design? Does the pan edge hang over the shell? I dont see why the pan would be detrimental to the mesh head or the mesh to the pan unless the non stick coating will wear away over time.

    Jerry we definitely need a video of it in action. Nice revision I cant wait to see this in action. T
    Hey Tom .... well this project had nothing to do with Hellfire's project ... ChromeBoy hadn't seen that ..... I remembered that at some point in time cake pans had been discussed as a possibility for a basket type design when people were buying basket parts from Roland. Although I never found a link to those old discussions... the idea didn't get pursued and lost forever... I only found Hellfire's use of the cake pan when searching for those old threads after ChromeBoy and I already had built these ....

    I think the key point here is the fact that after ChromeBoy realized the 9" pan fits perfectly into a 10" acoustic drum shell .... he purchased other sizes to test the fit.... low and behold .... 7" fits 8" acoustic shell, 9"=10", 11"=12", 12"=13", 13"=14" ..... etc. etc... So, the search for the ready made part .. the most important ingredient ... the drop in basket is available at a reasonable price .... From there simply developing the trigger response with the piezos, platforms, jacks, wiring etc... is where we are at.

    I have done side by side comparisons with my own multi piezo design and I will say that my own rim triggering is still the best I have ever used to this point ... but the new drop in basket is very good, quite adequate, I dare say better than most... and that using only 2 piezos ... And just look at this thing .... quick, easy to build and install....very attractive clean build ... and able to be popped in and out in an instant ... those are the real selling points(if it were being sold instead of given out on this forum)

    I haven't done any videos yet, ChromeBoy did a short demo when he tested the 1st Prototype before any improvements, and I think he will eventually put together something ...

    I will prolly do a little video demoing later on after I have built at least a 14" snare and possibly a 16" floor tom (where the rubber meets the road!)

    On the 10" drum that I did the pan rests about equal to the outer circumference of the drum shell. I'll be back in a little while with pics of the bearing edge protection installed on the drum pan.
    Last edited by JmanWord; 01-28-10, 03:12 PM.

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  • ChromeBoy
    replied
    It does simplify things a lot. In addition to not having to fiddle with the lugs, some might appreciate not having to cut any aluminum U-channel or similar crossbar material too. Thats a pretty simple task with an inexpensive hacksaw, but the cake pans seem to be a very nice alternative.

    Leave a comment:


  • fulrmr(Daniel)
    replied
    Originally posted by ChromeBoy View Post

    Daniel, the only thing to remember in terms of "an easier build" is that you can probably find crossbar parts in every small-town hardware store. The pans are not something I could find locally (or even regionally) in a retail store so I had to order them.
    I agree, that's true. But easier to me would be the number of parts and the assembly process. With this design I would not have to find the correct length bolts for my lugs to accomondate L brackets and I also would not have to remove the lugs at all. I would not even need L brackets, extra rubber washers or extra bolts to hold the crossbar to the L brackets. Just seems like a very sensible non-complicated application for any build.

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  • ChromeBoy
    replied
    Hey Tom.

    I just looked at Hellfire's X4L pads. I assume that's the build you're talking about. Awesome! Pretty much the same concept, I think. I little different platform and foam shape. Great work Hellfire!

    The neat thing about Hellfire's pad is that it is a complete DIY solution, right down to building the drum mount rather than buying a piece of hardware. Very cool. I think that design could lend itself to cool visual customizing too. Using a router to cut custom designs in the bottom sides of the bases, maybe using nice plywood (or veneer) and refinishing the pad base to match a lacquered or stained acoustic kit. A nice way to integrate a couple of e-pads into an A set and maintain the look. It might be tough to match exactly, but you could probably get close with patience and the right stain or dye.

    I think there are lots of variations you could employ with a design like this. A couple of different reflection plate versions come to mind immediately. One version could use a foam column and the other could use a "sandwich" of foam discs and risers. (pics below)

    As for the pan hanging over the edge, I think there will be some variation based on the manufacturer of the pan, and the thickness of the shell. With my Cheap-o shells and pans, they basically sit directly on, just barely inside the top of the bearing edge.

    Daniel, the only thing to remember in terms of "an easier build" is that you can probably find crossbar parts in every small-town hardware store. The pans are not something I could find locally (or even regionally) in a retail store so I had to order them.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • fulrmr(Daniel)
    replied
    Originally posted by ChromeBoy View Post
    Daniel, I thought my description may have been confusing. Here's a diagram of what I meant. You could even use some acorn style nuts on the bottom of the pan to cap the screws. Of course, this means its no longer really a "drop-in" solution, but I guess in a cut-shell install, that doesn't matter much.
    I understood. Thank you. However keep the diagrams coming. Great references for future use for everyone.

    You are quite correct that it really doesn't matter in any permanent installation. However I still think this solution would be much easier to put together for almost any DIY project. Not mention the piezo placement for quick accurate "Rolandesque" results. To me it just simplifies everything.

    Leave a comment:


  • KnipeDrums
    replied
    Is there any advantages with the drop in version than that of Hellfire's original design? Does the pan edge hang over the shell? I dont see why the pan would be detrimental to the mesh head or the mesh to the pan unless the non stick coating will wear away over time.

    Jerry we definitely need a video of it in action. Nice revision I cant wait to see this in action. T

    Leave a comment:


  • ChromeBoy
    replied
    Daniel, I thought my description may have been confusing. Here's a diagram of what I meant. You could even use some acorn style nuts on the bottom of the pan to cap the screws. Of course, this means its no longer really a "drop-in" solution, but I guess in a cut-shell install, that doesn't matter much.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • ChromeBoy
    replied
    Thanks Daniel.
    For those using cut down shells, I'd imagine you could even spray paint the bottom of the cake pans.
    You could even protect a permanently installed jack and the wiring if you installed it high enough on the shell that it came thru the side of the pan. Just be sure that the jack isn't so high you risk hitting it or having the head come in contact with it during deflection.
    You can see in the pics that I have my jacks installed below the pans, so I just popped a hole/grommet in the bottom and ran the wires thru.

    Leave a comment:


  • fulrmr(Daniel)
    replied
    Originally posted by JmanWord View Post
    Thanks Dan you da man.... honestly the triggering of the EPro drop in sets the bar pretty low at least from the demoing I experienced .... ChromeBoy's idea for this design raises that bar substantially .... rather impressive IMO... Credit goes to him .... well and his wife of course for having the right cake pan ..... and not hitting ChromeBoy over the head with a Rolling pin when he stole it from her kitchen
    LOL! Well both of you have changed my diection for next project. I really wasn't fond of the single crossbar (aesthetically that is). This design to me is much more elegant and pleasing to the eye, even for permanent application. Especially for open bottom pads. Nice and clean looking. Well....time to spend more money! I promise, my wife wife dosen't know where you live!
    Last edited by fulrmr(Daniel); 01-28-10, 10:29 AM.

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  • ChromeBoy
    replied
    Don't worry... I still give her plenty of reasons to chase me with the rolling pin . What can I tell ya, living with a drummer is a challenge. She was pretty happy to give up the pans though. My wife has G.A.S. for kitchen gadgets, craft supplies and shoes so she doesn't say much about my collection of gear. Plus, she got all the proceeds from the sale of the TD-8 and TD-9 kits, so I'm in her good graces these days.

    As for larger drums, I like the performance I'm getting from my two 14" floor toms. Only one of them has Jman's V3 mod at this point. The other is still using the foam "donut" from V2. They are working well. The 16 and up may be a different story though, both because of the diameter of the shell and the fact that you'll need to use a different brand of head (mine are all Roland).

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  • JmanWord
    replied
    Originally posted by fulrmr(Daniel) View Post
    Very nice. Glad to see someone colaborate to build something so simple that blows Pearls Drop-in junk out of the water. Now you can use any kind of head you want for whatever feel is best for you. It's amazing how simple and elegant this design is. Can't wait to hear from Jerry on this. Great job!
    Thanks Dan you da man.... honestly the triggering of the EPro drop in sets the bar pretty low at least from the demoing I experienced .... ChromeBoy's idea for this design raises that bar substantially .... rather impressive IMO... Credit goes to him .... well and his wife of course for having the right cake pan ..... and not hitting ChromeBoy over the head with a Rolling pin when he stole it from her kitchen
    Last edited by JmanWord; 01-27-10, 11:02 PM.

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