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  • Drop-in Dual Zone Trigger Collaboration ChromeBoy/JmanWord

    JmanWord and I wanted to start a thread related to a recent project we've been working on. A collaboration to create a drop-in, dual-zone trigger system.

    A couple of comments...
    First, this design places an object directly in contact with the bearing edge of the drum. Although I have found no damage, I'm using a very inexpensive kit that I never intend to play acoustically. Always remember to be very careful with the bearing edge of your drums.
    Second, this drop-in is an alternative to the tried-and-true crossbar method, not a replacement. In fact, I use one of Jman's 14" trigger kits on my snare and its my favorite drum!
    Finally, the process of collaborating with JmanWord on the project has been a blast. The people on this site are an incredible resource and its been great fun sharing the build process. Thanks to everyone here and elsewhere who graciously share their DIY efforts. You guys rock!

    I started playing around with the idea of a drop-in trigger in December. Version 1 was simply a 9" x 2" deep cake pan with a foam column in the center... 4 layers of 1/2" Poron about 1.5" in diameter stuck onto a piezo, which was stuck to the bottom of the pan with some foam tape. Fast and simple.

    I found that the pan fit into a 10" tom, resting on the bearing edge. I attached some 1/4" thick foam weather stripping from the home store around the outside of the pan to keep it snug and provide some isolation. I don't have any pics of it, but it worked nicely. However, it got me thinking about a dual-zone option.

    Using some sheets of 3mm thick hobby foam, I created a foam "donut" that could support a head trigger on top and surround a rim trigger which would be stuck directly to the bottom of the pan. It was all stuck together using KRT. I switched from a simple column of foam to a cone made from 3 pieces of 1/2" Poron.

    The build process was pretty simply. It produced perfect head response using the PD105 preset on my TD-20. It also produced 360 degree rim triggering with a single piezo. Very cool.

    It worked well enough that I ordered cake pans to fit the rest of my kit. Each pan is 1" smaller than the diameter of the drum. They all fit fine, although I found that the larger the pan, the tighter the fit. For the 14" drums, I switched to 1/8" thick weather stripping. I'm currently using 9", 11" and 13" drop-ins in my 10", 12" and 14" toms and they work great! I don't own a 16" floor tom, but I suspect a 15" pan would fit nicely inside the shell.

    Because there are no restaurant supply stores near me, I had to order the pans online. My guess is that those of you in bigger cities can find the pans locally. Jman recently found a site that had every size he wanted and the price was really reasonable. I'm sure he'll link to it if anyone is interested.

    I had been talking to JmanWord about the build process and he offered to help me test the design. So, I shipped him a 10" drop-in. After some initial testing, he redesigned the head trigger platform. I'll let Jman explain it from here but needless to say, Jman's Version 3 worked so well, I abandoned the foam "donut" and started rebuilding my triggers using his re-design.

    OK Jman, you're up...
    Attached Files
    ChromeBoy/JmanWord Drop-in Triggers, PD-125, A to EZ Cymbals, F.A.T. Pedals, TD-20+TDW-20, SPD-S

  • #2
    Very nice. Glad to see someone colaborate to build something so simple that blows Pearls Drop-in junk out of the water. Now you can use any kind of head you want for whatever feel is best for you. It's amazing how simple and elegant this design is. Can't wait to hear from Jerry on this. Great job!
    8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
    http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

    Comment


    • #3
      I can't wait to get back and post on this ... it has been one of the most interesting and fun DIY projects I have worked on to date... Chromeboy emailed me with his great idea and we went back and forth after that, he mailed me his first prototype project.... Very cool bouncing back and forth via email with Chromeboy, brainstorming and rethinking this very simple yet very functional trigger design.... gotta get back and finish up email business in the real world and then I'll be back to add a little to our progression on this one... J

      PS..... now you can see what I was doing when I posted that recent thread on Bad weather and good DIY ....
      I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
      Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Powered by the TD-50 and 2ea. 2Box modules, drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Great concept- Can't wait to see the latest details.

        the sanity of my little DIY world is cracking. just what I needed, more fuel for GAS
        TD-20 (non expanded), acoustic look DIY a to e conversion - some cake pan/ some crossbar method. DIY cymbals, VH-12 :-)
        .
        Psalm 150
        had the best times with this band https://www.facebook.com/SaintHooliganMusic
        YouTube video postings: https://www.youtube.com/user/racer52online/videos
        Vdrums Photo Albums: http://www.vdrums.com/member/26923-racer52/media

        Comment


        • #5
          Chromeboy's dual zone drop in pan with Jman mods.

          So, when Chromeboy emailed me about his ideas for the drop in conversion I remembered doing quite a bit of research into the cake pan conversion a few years back. There was some posting on the DIY site if I remember right. Hellfire has done conversions using a pan as the base for a complete edrum pad. But outside of those that have used the Roland parts for doing basket conversions the concept for doing a completely sustained drop in unit that quickly drops in or is removed from an acoustic drum was never really perfected that I know of. At least a conversion where all sizes of baskets/pans are already premade in a perfect size that will fit almost any acoustic shell..... universal and very economical for the clean results you see.

          Funny the timing of things, during the course of my conversations with Chromeboy .... Winter NAMM happened. After seeing and playing the Pearl EPro this little project took on a little more meaning for me... And I will say that the poor rim triggering of that Pearl kit was part of the inspiration to fine tune this DIY drop in. I don't like to make idle boasts, but I will say that this little project by a couple of Ham fisted home DIYers triggers circles around the EPro drop ins.

          OK, so when I received the original drop in prototype from CB ... I started by removing the small factory wires from the piezos and replacing them with my own beefier wiring. Another goal I had was to make this drop in so that no modification whatsoever is needed to the drum shell.... simply drop it into the shell and plug n play. In order to attain this, instead of putting a permanent jack in the air vent like I normally do, I decided to make a jack that the connectors will slide into the vent hole without even needing to remove the vent grommet . In my case I used a Pacific shell that has the threaded air vent grommet, which is a pretty good test since the interior diameter of that grommet means the jack connectors need to be pretty small. I used quick connectors small enough to fit. 1/4" are too large, so the smaller ones, or bullet connectors, or pin connectors are the way to go. After replacing the piezo wires and installing my jack system, I tested the drop in.... without going into all the details..... Murphy's Law kicked in .... a short time later I found out the head piezo had bad continuity and after tearing apart, resoldering, replacing, retesting, pulling apart, and so on and so on... hours later.......... you know how you just don't want to believe a piezo that has no apparant damage to the human eye could be a proble ..... well, I finally replaced that and did a few other mods.... See below!
          Alright, so Murphy's Law is not always a bad thing when the final results it causes are good. Since I had to rebuild the triggering from scratch I decided to implement another change to the design... an adjustable platform for the head piezo. I realized this would be a good thing when considering the different heights and types of trigger foam that people tend to use in these conversions. I generally use trigger foam 1 3/8" tall, Chromeboy's was 1 1/2" tall .... so you can see that the spacers needed to attain the proper height above the lip of the pan would vary depending on trigger foam, double sided tape used to stick piezo, etc. So, I decided on the adjustable height platform.... I simply used a set of machine screws with nuts, rubber spacer, washers etc.. drilling the platform and pan. Now the platform can be raised or lowered by simply adjusting the height with the nuts, tighten it up, test it ... once the proper height is attained a drop of blue threadlock will reassure you that nothing will change, but blue threadlock is the semi-permanent type that you can loosen if you ever desire in the future.

          Before using the adjustable platform I was getting some problemed triggering, where an occasional rim shot would trigger off the head, and module parameters did not completely solve the problem ... adjusting radically would make the rim triggering less sensitive, and when the rim triggering was adjusted sensitive enough .... errant rim shot on head .... long story short, since Murphy's Law had totally hosed my original testing and I never really determined how much of the problems were piezo related, foam related or platform related ....... end results: the new piezo with new trigger foam and adjustable platform corrected this completely ... Now as Chromeboy posted above with a preset trigger type the triggering is plug n play with just a very minor bit of adjusting necessary to fine tune. I've embedded a couple pics and here is a zip folder with some more.... fun, fun, fun, ...... I attached a couple pics of 2 different types of install the first is with the jack installed directly in the pan for open bottom drums. The second is with the deep panel jack installed in the shell with quick connects.

          Collaborating on this project as Chromeboy also said has been a blast.... two heads better than one..... It is great to see, what a couple everyday guys can do, bouncing ideas off one another ...... And in the end "Baking" up a project like this .... try it, it's a piece of cake (Pun intended) J

          Here is the zip: https://files.secureserver.net/0swMwPu2l175nS This is a new link with just a variety of Drop in Pan conversion pics. Since this thread was begun I lost all my on line pics so excuse the potpourri of pics. Most of my pics in further posts of this thread will be missing, so this is what we have, not everything but at least a start .... , J
          Attached Files
          Last edited by JmanWord; 03-07-13, 02:58 PM.
          I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
          Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Powered by the TD-50 and 2ea. 2Box modules, drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            By the way.... I did find cake pans at a good price ... I went ahead and ordered enough to convert an entire 9 piece kit ... I plan to do more experimenting so wanted all sizes I would normally convert.... price of all those pans was only about $70 including shipping here:
            http://www.cooksdream.com/store/cate...t-daddios.html

            Edit, the prices have gone up since way back then. There is also another brand of round 2" deep pans on the site. I have never tried those but here is that link: http://www.cooksdream.com/store/category/bab.html
            Last edited by JmanWord; 09-21-15, 04:10 PM.
            I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
            Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Powered by the TD-50 and 2ea. 2Box modules, drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Jman's redesign really improved the performance (especially rims) of this thing. He thought the "donut" of foam may have isolated the rim piezo too much causing some of the inconsistencies.

              I had also considered a wire "pigtail" thru the vent hole, but since my shells already had the jacks installed, I just used those. If someone wanted to spend another couple of bucks, you could swap the bullet-style quick connectors for a 2.5 mm jack and plug. I think it would fit thru the vent hole on most drums.

              http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Conn...5.xhtml?30-714
              http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Conn...22.xhtml?AC122

              They'd add some cost but might "pretty up" the build a bit.
              ChromeBoy/JmanWord Drop-in Triggers, PD-125, A to EZ Cymbals, F.A.T. Pedals, TD-20+TDW-20, SPD-S

              Comment


              • #8
                Thank you both for sharing this recipe...definitely not a half-baked job... no on the contrary this is very well done.
                Cool-ass design Daddios!!
                Last edited by bogiesbad; 01-27-10, 10:49 PM.
                chris :D

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Chris. Its been a fun project. The web store that Jman linked to has better prices on pans than I found. They have a package deal for $32 that would set a person up with pans for a 6", 8", 10", 12" and 2x14" drums.
                  ChromeBoy/JmanWord Drop-in Triggers, PD-125, A to EZ Cymbals, F.A.T. Pedals, TD-20+TDW-20, SPD-S

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ChromeBoy View Post
                    I had also considered a wire "pigtail" thru the vent hole, but since my shells already had the jacks installed, I just used those. If someone wanted to spend another couple of bucks, you could swap the bullet-style quick connectors for a 2.5 mm jack and plug. I think it would fit thru the vent hole on most drums.

                    http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Conn...5.xhtml?30-714
                    http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Conn...22.xhtml?AC122

                    They'd add some cost but might "pretty up" the build a bit.
                    Yup, I remember in our emails you had already investigated the idea of using the smaller jack that would just slip into the existing vent grommet. This is something that was also very appealing. Like you say the cost of the build goes up a bit .... also, you would want an 1/8" to 1/4" TRS adapter to connect to the TRS cable or TRS input jack of the module ... the reason I went with parts I already had in my shop.. And the usual jack we normally use that stays in the drum is fine too ...

                    One thing I noticed about the Pearl EPro is that the jack remained in the shell. I thought I would build something that eliminates that for those that really want to quick change back to acoustics and have the acoustic drum exactly like it is normally without jack... But honestly .... I am not that excited about changing back and forth from acoustic to electronic to acoustic ...... jeez, I haven't been playing acoustics for some years, but one thing I remember quite well... once I have a drum tuned just like I want, the last thing I want to do is pull the head off again
                    I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
                    Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Powered by the TD-50 and 2ea. 2Box modules, drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      FYI...
                      This is where I got my pans. They have a 17" too, which I didn't see on the other site, in case anyone wants to try an 18" floor tom. Not sure how it would work. I've done 3 x 14" and they are great. I think Jman has a 16" floor tom on his kit that triggers very nicely, but it uses his crossbar design.
                      http://www.fantes.com/cake-pans-round.html#2
                      ChromeBoy/JmanWord Drop-in Triggers, PD-125, A to EZ Cymbals, F.A.T. Pedals, TD-20+TDW-20, SPD-S

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I hear ya Jman. I'd almost never have the need to switch from E's back to A's. The only times I'd want to be able to do it is in the event of a module failure at a gig, or to appease a f.o.h. engineer who isn't wild about mixing e-drums.. although I've gotten a lot less crap from those guys since I picked up the TDW-20.
                        This way I just keep a set of mylar heads, drum mics and some cymbals in the trailer and I can quickly switch from E to A if I need to. The drums I'm using are cheap poplar shells, but with decent heads and a few minutes of tuning, they'd get me thru a gig.
                        ChromeBoy/JmanWord Drop-in Triggers, PD-125, A to EZ Cymbals, F.A.T. Pedals, TD-20+TDW-20, SPD-S

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yeah, 14" and 16" dual zone conversions will be the more informative testing ... Another aside .... one thing on my own crossbar trigger design I have always concentrated on is positional detection with head and rim where applicable.... The PS is also working with this drop in design. I do not see any insurmountable obstacles with the larger diameter drums, even if additional mods result I am sure it will be possible with favorable results.. when I get the set of pans, I will go to the 14 snare and 16 floor tom next.

                          And I know you have already worked on the 14" CB ...

                          One thing that ChromeBoy related to me was that slight modification of the pan may be necessary on some snare drums ... if the pan bumps the interior lug hardware you might need to grind out or drill out so everything fits nicely.
                          I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
                          Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Powered by the TD-50 and 2ea. 2Box modules, drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm sure that if it has the Jman's seal it has to work great....but
                            One thing I would do differently is to use three standoffs to eliminate the piezo plate from "see-sawing." Do you use tape on the bearing edge with these or was that to protect the wood edges only?
                            chris :D

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bogiesbad View Post
                              Thank you both for sharing this recipe...definitely not a half-baked job... no on the contrary this is very well done.
                              Cool-ass design Daddios!!
                              Thanks for the witty kudos Chris .... well I'm about fried .... might have to call it a night ... time to get toasted .... urrr I mean toasty.... in the covers I mean... man, I suck at these puns, must have cooked a few too many brain cells in my youth
                              I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
                              Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Powered by the TD-50 and 2ea. 2Box modules, drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

                              Comment

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