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Dual-zone cymbal, what piezo?

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  • Dual-zone cymbal, what piezo?

    Hi guys,

    I'm a new kid on the block, and I've just got my first electronic kit.
    I already knew it was possible to convert an old acoustic cymbal into an electric one. I want to build a dual-zone one, for my kit doesn't have dualzone cymbalpads but it does support them.
    I have already thought about how to do this, and this is my plan:
    - Old cymbal (in my case: old 14" Paiste 101 crash)
    - Female jack-connector (3.5mm)
    - 2 piezo's
    - Some wires
    I'm planning on mounting one of the piezo's in the cup and the other one on the bow. The one on the bow will be placed placed about halfway on the bow. Then connect the two piezos to the jack-connector.
    I'm not sure what to do about silencing the cymbal, but I think I'll buy me some cymbal practicemufflers and put one of those on top.
    So here's the questions:
    1) What piezo's should I use? (Impedance, resonance frequency, electric capacity)
    2) How should I connect the piezo's?
    3) Any hints/tips/suggestions?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Addicted; 11-09-08, 09:56 AM.

  • #2
    What kind of module are you using? Also, what type of cymbal are you looking to build (i.e. ride, crash, etc.)
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #3
      You want to just get standard piezos, either 35mm or 27mm. The only thing that changes with piezo size is sensitivity (bigger = more sensitive).

      I think you'll want to use two separate inputs, one for each piezo then you can get the cross talk / sensitivity for each piezo individually if not trying to separate the zones will be almost impossible.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm trying to build a 2-zone ride for my DTXpress 1 (yes, I know this is an 'unofficial Roland forum', but this is the one place I found to place this. Besides, it's about the cymbal, not my module ).
        So Sae, my best shot is to put the small (27mm) piezo in the cup? And the big one (35mm) on the bow.
        What you're saying is instead of soldering the piezo's on 1 jack-connector (and thus send both signals through 1 cable), I should make 2 seperate outputs, with 2 cables to my module, to adjust the piezo's seperatly?

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        • #5
          You can't go wrong with two separate inputs...of course this means using two inputs (duh!). You could always try it with only one input and if you can't get the zone separation you need then go for two inputs.

          Comment


          • #6
            OK, thanks for the help.
            I'm trying to fix it with one input, if it turns out it doesn't work I can always remodel it to two inputs.
            Another question, and maybe the most important one, how do I connect the piezo's to the jack-connector.
            The jack-connector has 3 connectionpoints, bottom, middle and tip. But how to connect it, if using 2 piezo's on 1 cable?
            In another topic (splitting stereo cable into two mono cables) I've already read that it's like this:
            P1 ------ tip
            \------- middle
            P2 ------ middle
            \------ bottom
            But how to connect the piezo?

            Comment


            • #7
              OK, I've bought myself two piezo's (15 and 35mm) and started experimenting with them.
              My module has an extra output, which is designed for 2 single-zone pads on one stereo-cable. So when I connect the piezo's like above, it works. I do get the two sounds and my module displays them as two different pads (pad 9/10).
              But when I try this with, for example, my snarepad, I don't get the second (rim) sound. I looked it up in the manual, I've set rimtriggers on (I can set sounds for them), but the rim doesn't trigger.
              Should I connect the piezo's in another way, and if, how?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Addicted View Post
                OK, I've bought myself two piezo's (15 and 35mm) and started experimenting with them.
                My module has an extra output, which is designed for 2 single-zone pads on one stereo-cable. So when I connect the piezo's like above, it works. I do get the two sounds and my module displays them as two different pads (pad 9/10).
                But when I try this with, for example, my snarepad, I don't get the second (rim) sound. I looked it up in the manual, I've set rimtriggers on (I can set sounds for them), but the rim doesn't trigger.
                Should I connect the piezo's in another way, and if, how?
                I'm not 100% sure (maybe a yamaha guy can confirm) but I think the yamaha module you have does dual zone as piezo/switch for the snare. If that is the case, that would explain your results. Your extra trigger out is for two piezos but your snare needs to be piezo/switch. Again I'm not 100% sure on that one. I just remember reading something to that extent. I know that on a Roland module the piezo switch is connected like this:


                On the yamaha, you may need to flip the black and red wires for optimum performance.
                alesisDRUMMER.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks very much for your help.
                  So my dualzone-idea doesn't work that easily. That means I have to build something as the Keith Raper's Circuit.
                  http://edrum.for.free.fr/static/pict...imDetector.jpg
                  And with that, I can also make the other version of it, to connect mono pads on one input (only I have to figure out how that circuit is build :P).
                  I'll keep you posted!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Addicted View Post
                    OK, I've bought myself two piezo's (15 and 35mm) and started experimenting with them.
                    My module has an extra output, which is designed for 2 single-zone pads on one stereo-cable. So when I connect the piezo's like above, it works. I do get the two sounds and my module displays them as two different pads (pad 9/10).
                    But when I try this with, for example, my snarepad, I don't get the second (rim) sound. I looked it up in the manual, I've set rimtriggers on (I can set sounds for them), but the rim doesn't trigger.
                    Should I connect the piezo's in another way, and if, how?
                    Have you thought about using your extra output for your ride cymbal? That way you can try to use the two piezo set-up you already have. You would have to tweak your module settings, but it should work if you are able to assign sounds to each trigger. Just a thought.
                    alesisDRUMMER.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hellfire View Post
                      Have you thought about using your extra output for your ride cymbal? That way you can try to use the two piezo set-up you already have. You would have to tweak your module settings, but it should work if you are able to assign sounds to each trigger. Just a thought.
                      Yes, I have thought about that. Thing is, I want to be able to still use the extra output, as I also want to add a china-cymbal and maybe also a cowbell.
                      So it looks like Keith Raper is my best friend in expanding my drums.

                      The progress so far:
                      I've bought the stuff and just put together the KRC. It seems to be working fine, except that it won't trigger my rim sound.
                      When I'm adjusting the sounds, it does recognize the rim-piezo. But when in 'playing mode' it doesn't give me rim sounds. I've tried several inputs, all have this problem.

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                      • #12
                        I hate to be the stupid one here but Could somebody please tell me the use of this Keith Raper circuit? Is it not just the same as the Roland digram but with extra resisrots etc. What is the point in the resistors etc?

                        cheers

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                        • #13
                          Well, as told above, the inputs on my DTXpress are piezo/switch inputs.
                          This means that for example a two-zone snare doesn't have 2 piezo's, but a piezo and a switch. How exactly this works, I don't know. It has something to do with the switch interrupting the piezo's current or something like that.
                          By using the KRC you can use 2 piezo's on a piezo/switch input. So basically, the second (rim) piezo functions like a switch.

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                          • #14
                            OK, after reading the KRC-topic again, I found out the 'rim' only triggers when there's a vibration of the main piezo.
                            I'm planning on mounting the two piezo's at the bottom of an old hi-hat top. My plan was to put one in the bell and the other one about halfway on the bow.
                            Seems like I have to put them closer together, so the mainpiezo has to be very close to the bell.

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                            • #15
                              ok thanks I didn't get the imput is a switch bit. I'm on Roland so phew my DIY will still be all ok

                              Cheers

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