To Mesh or not to Mesh (Theoretical discussion)

[Guest]

I'm trying something different with this topic. It is more of a theoretical idea. I want to see where edrummers stand and why. I put this in the DIY category because there seems to be more edrummers here that are in pursuit of the "Holy Grail" factor of edrumming (edrums being just like adrums). With some renewed talk of a muffled standard drum head [see Using a regular drum head (muffled)], makes me wonder if a trend back to this practice is around the corner. I know that R.E.T. and Boom Theory drums already use this type of set-up and have for some time. If you want an earlier version of this set-up there are also the Tama Techstars. If edrummers are willing to use dampened acoustic cymbals for eCymbals, why not standard drum heads, muffled, on an electronic set? If the acoustic noise level of a damped "A" cymbal is "acceptable", then the acoustic noise level of a muffled drum head can't be all that different.

Now, I know that a lot of us on this forum are into mesh heads. I use mesh heads (I love'em), but I also use some muffled standard drum heads as well (Remo practice pads converted). I've never once had a complaint of the noise level on those drums in my house or when I used them in an apartment complex. If some edrummer consider an electronic drum set that looks, acts, and sounds just like an acoustic drum set to be the "Holy grail" of edrumming, why hasn't this practice become more wide spread?

Do drummers believe that mesh heads feel more like a standard drum? Or are we all caught up in the coolness factor or some other factor about mesh heads? I would like to see what all of you think.

[suedehead]

I would love to convert my mesh equipped DIY kit to dampened acoustic heads. I have experimented in the past with different dampening techniques, however none were able to get the noise level down to acceptable levels. This was especially the case with my 22" kick drums. They were especially loud. Maybe I was going about the dampening process the wrong way.

I also use gum rubber sheets on the striking surface of my DIY acoustic cymbals so they are only about as noisy as Roland's line of ecymbals. The noise created by my mesh heads drums seem to be more in line with the cymbals than a muffled acoustic head drum would be.

[Michael Render]

I have played X-Drums, Wirges Drums, Knipe Drums and RET Percussion. All which use muffled real heads and all, in my opinion, represent the state of the art in real-head triggering. They are all loud. Much louder than mesh, but less so than a regular drum.

I have spent the most time with Knipe and X-Drums and they both trigger really well. X-Drums are the quietest, but still significantly loud. In a rock setting, you probably won't notice. In a quiet setting, the tapping becomes apparent.

I think that is the stumbling block to wide acceptance. The volume. They certainly respond better than mesh.

[Gastric]

I didn't recall the change from acoustic to mesh heads on my S&S triggers to be that noticable volume/db wise. It was more of a change to the pitch of the strike to make it less sharp. I only replaced the acoustic heads with mesh as the acoutics were seriously beat to snot with major dimples, divets, etc. and the Pearl mesh heads were silly cheap compared to replacement acoustics. At least based on the places I was shopping. So noise and cheap are a winning combo, with cheap leading the pack in that particular decision.

One thing I can comment on from my brief experience with the S&S kit, and keep in mind that was the very first "drums" I ever owned and am not a drummer, is that the muffled acoustic heads felt pretty dead and unlively when compared to the raw acoustic drums I've since owned and the Hart and DIY mesh heads I've used. However, they were in use in a reflection plate environment where the entire head was backed by foam resting on a steel plate which was resting on another layer of foam. It was a pretty tight foam backing under the head overall. So I would expect that to certainly eats a lot of the motion of the head I'd think compared to a crossbar-and-cone setup which leaves the head freely suspended.

So how do you muffle the head adequately without making it feel like you're playing on a piece of wood?

[richp123]

I've tried single ply and double ply Evans and Remo heads with the Remo Muff'ls (Full and Ring versions) and can't get them down to an acceptable volume. Nylon tip sticks are worse than wooden, but in either case the impact of stick on head was 'plastic' and too loud. I even tried some mousepad material on top of and underneath a Mylar head, alone and in concert with the Muff'l. While that was better, it had a terrible feel to it and was still noisier than I deemed acceptable.

I've used Roland mesh heads and home-made pet screen heads. My pet screen heads are the quietest of the whole lot, and, along with the Roland heads, provide the best feel compared to a properly tuned Mylar head.

For me it's gotta be functional, durable and responsive. Coolness is way down the list of criteria.

[Guest]

Wow! I didn't think I would get this many replies. Thanks for all the replies guys. It's good to see where some of us stand sometimes. It also helps me focus on new DIY projects.

Has anyone done a side by side acoustic noise level of a converted aCymbal and a muffled drum head trigger? I was just curious how much louder the head was from the cymbal. Or maybe a side by side of a mesh vs muffled head trigger?

[Gastric]

I have a db meter and the ability to record audio. I also have one, and just one, acoustic drum head left. Alas no foam on hand to muffle it with like you would a reflection plate design. If you feed me some suggestions of products I might have around the house to mimic some under-the-skin muffling I'd be happy to try.

[gmbydmit]

just a quick question...

I'm thinking of converting my Ludwig Vistalite Set to an E-drum kit.

anyone tried these mesh heads:

http://www.rtdrumsets.com/html/practicepads.html

??

[spanner]

there's a video a saw on you-tube with a guy using RET drums and smart triggers in his home studio. He is demonstrating DFH and also compares volume between mesh head (not free standing but with foam underneath) toms, snare and smartrigger cymbals.
Try a search under DFH.

[cheapthrill]

there's a video a saw on you-tube with a guy using RET drums and smart triggers in his home studio. He is demonstrating DFH and also compares volume between mesh head (not free standing but with foam underneath) toms, snare and smartrigger cymbals.
Try a search under DFH.

I believe the video that Spanner mentioned is this one here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svF9kJbWrmQ

[Guest]

I believe the video that Spanner mentioned is this one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svF9kJbWrmQ

Thanks cheapthrill. That sounds about what I get with my DIY muffled drums.

I have a db meter and the ability to record audio. I also have one, and just one, acoustic drum head left. Alas no foam on hand to muffle it with like you would a reflection plate design. If you feed me some suggestions of products I might have around the house to mimic some under-the-skin muffling I'd be happy to try.

Thanks Gastric. You could just use one of your S&S drums. No need to re-invent the wheel. You probably don't need to even record the audio. The db meter numbers should do the trick.

[Gastric]

I sold the S&S kit after my first A-2-E was done. Actually, I saw it on Craiglist again recently though can't find the link anymore.

All I have is a Pearl Export kit partially converted with all the heads converted to DIY mesh except a single 14" snare batter. Ooops, just remembered I have a bunch of Groove Percussion heads in my closet, too.

[Tetra-Pro]

So how is a real head muffled so that it has a good (non-muffled) feel, and yet gets the big noise reduction?

Anybody know how are the heads on RET pads muffled?

--Bob

[JrummerJ]

I have tried both, and I too had trouble getting an acoustic head muffled right to get both get feel and low noise, the noise being the bigger issue.

On my DIY crash cymbals, I used adhesive neoprene on the bottom, and then a mouse pad attached with 3M spray. They are only a little louder than hitting the drums, which have Hart Magnums. My ride is 2 16" crashes bolted together with some foam in between and gum rubber on the bow and bell.

The drums with the mylar heads were just too loud and I don't want to wake the kids up at night, so mesh it is for me

J

[cheapthrill]

So how is a real head muffled so that it has a good (non-muffled) feel, and yet gets the big noise reduction?

Anybody know how are the heads on RET pads muffled?

--Bob

Here is a more recent post on the subject...

http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44877

... the design attached in John's post seems like it would be relatively quiet while using mylar heads.