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Making a 3 zone ride for Roland module

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  • Making a 3 zone ride for Roland module

    Hi all

    Right

    I have a piezo on bell, piezo on bow and choke on the edge.

    Each zone works but the edge will only choke itself and not the bell or bow.

    Anyone have a decent schematic or idea?

    Many thanks

    Smiffy

  • #2
    Here is schematic for a 3 zone ride
    Attached Files
    TD-9 V2 (VEX'd), Roto-toms (8,10,12,14) on a collar-lock rack with internal DIY triggers, and Drum-tec real feel pro heads
    Triggered Sabian Quite tone cymbals

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    • #3
      I found this one
      Attached Files
      Last edited by daveybabes; 06-10-19, 04:00 PM.
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      • #4
        Awesome schematics ! Thank you!
        I'm planning to do this also with the myrk chokes and on a low volume cymbal.

        Do you think this would work with all parts underneath the ride?

        I'd prefer not to use rubber or noise dampeners on it. btw

        Roland TD1-KPX + TD25 module + VH11 HH

        Comment


        • #5
          You said you'd be using a piezo on the bell. Are you sure? The Roland way only works with a switch on the bell.
          But you can use a piezo like a 'switch' if you're using the Keith-Raper circuit to let a transistor act as a switch. I have such on my DIY low-volume ride and it works perfectly (I'm using a small trim pot to adjust the sensitivity).
          I'm also using Myrk's membranes. They're great for choking but underneath a low-volume cymbal it's hit&miss. I've got thicker TongXiang cymbals for my crashes that do not bend enough to cause edge triggering, but they are better for choking. Then, my ride (a WHD low-volume, from gear4music UK) is too thin. Its low-frequency rumble caused all kinds of mistriggers on the membrane switch, and while triggering the edge basically worked, I often ended up with accidental choking after a hit. So, with thinner low-volume cymbals you'd either go for 2 zones, or have to put the membrane switch on the top and decouple it as much as possible. To protect the membrane you could use rim silencers. I'm using the ones from Bill Sanders UK: https://practicedrumkits.co.uk/cymbal-silencers-4-c.asp
          As a plus, they stop thin cymbals from rumbling too much, which is always an issue with LV cymbals. To counteract this, you might also consider adding high-pass filtering the bow-piezo signal. In my case, I've put a 100k resistor in parallel to the output, with a 56pF capacitor in series to the piezo. That creates a 6dB highpass at 2.8kHz, which helps the detection circuit in the module react to actual stick hits much better.
          gear: MarkDrum YES e-kit highly modified (low-volume trigger cymbals, 16" DIY kick, 12" DIY snare + tom 3, Goedrum HH controller), Triggera 10" splash
          band: http://theboardmusic.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Smiffywasere View Post
            Hi all

            Right

            I have a piezo on bell, piezo on bow and choke on the edge.

            Each zone works but the edge will only choke itself and not the bell or bow.

            Anyone have a decent schematic or idea?

            Many thanks

            Smiffy

            Three zone ride can be made with one piezo under the bell, one piezo under the bow and one switch under the edge.
            From my memory, one solution is like this :
            3 zone ride P-P-S.png
            Plug the two jacks into two cymbal inputs, assign no sound to the "rim" of the bell input. Set the crosstalk of bell and bow to high value to separate bow and bell sound.
            Problem is that it may needs good physical isolation of the bell piezo to work good, but it's the best because all three sounds are choked with the same switch.

            Another solution :


            3 zone ride P-P-S (bis).png

            Here you need to plug the Bell/bow jack into a TOM or AUX input (piezo/piezo) and the Bow / Edge jack into a Cymbal input (piezo switch). Assign no sound to the rim of the Bell/bow input the piezo/piezo input), assign the bow sound to the head of the Bow/edge input. This way the bell sound should not be heard when you hit the edge of the cymbal even without physical isolation of the bell piezo. But, you can't choke the bell sound, only the edge and the bow (still better than what you describe).

            Hope it could help
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you so much, Sascha and Silv1co!

              Scuse me, i'm a total newbie.
              I wasn't aware of the rumbling of the low volume cymbals. That makes total sense.. So, the dampening edge is mandatory.
              I managed soldering some piezos and resistors following diagrams, but that's it. I have no real understanding of how capacitors or resitors work :/
              Maybe my best option is to buy a DiY kit.

              The Drone System Trigger is still active?
              This guy's designs and dedication looks pretty sweet!!
              DroneTrigger_3zoneRide.jpg
              https://www.facebook.com/DRONE-Trigg...05/?tn-str=k*F


              Again, Thanks for the fantastic info!!!!
              Last edited by nAAAx; 08-29-19, 01:55 PM. Reason: bad grammar
              Roland TD1-KPX + TD25 module + VH11 HH

              Comment


              • #8
                Looks impressive, mechanical-wise, at least that 'support plate' under the bell makes sense to me. I've recently converted an Arborea Mute 14" crash for my hihat, and I got the bell piezo work with the ddrum DDTi and Addictive Drums for bow & bell sounds, but the plate makes sense for having a more uniform bell response.
                The Drone cymbals look exactly to the Arboreas. They are very thin, and as we all know from 'real' cymbals, the thinner the lower in pitch... I've tried various ways to dampen the cymbal on the top or underneath, rubber, clear PVC, in the end a dampened low-vilume cymbal feels like hitting a brick. No advantage over a heavy rubber-coated plastic disc. So one either has to filter out the rumbling in the trigger settings, or work out some treatment on the mechanical and electric part. TheDrone photo looks like the piezos reside on a rubber disc. That alone is almost mandatory. It also ensures a longer piezo life. Never glue a piezo directly on a surface, at least not when it can slightly flex. The rubber acts like a (dynamic/nonlinear) bandpass filter but the high-frequency region should still be sufficiently prominent.
                Last edited by sascha; 08-31-19, 09:50 AM.
                gear: MarkDrum YES e-kit highly modified (low-volume trigger cymbals, 16" DIY kick, 12" DIY snare + tom 3, Goedrum HH controller), Triggera 10" splash
                band: http://theboardmusic.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you Sascha! Certainly there's a complexity with the specific characteristics of cymbals I was'nt aware of.
                  Did you make all the pieces of your cymbals, or bought some parts to make them work?

                  I also like about the Drone trigger how they look balanced and how the wires are placed to let the cymball swing
                  Roland TD1-KPX + TD25 module + VH11 HH

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I use stuff I find at my local electronics market & hardware store.

                    In the hihat picture you see the added rubber, it's there because the cymbal's got some massive low-frequency rumbling going on. I'm using a legless stand mounted to the rack via a multiclamp, so the impact transfers across the entire rack and therefore needs some dampening. Otherwise it'll be highly distracting.

                    The other picture is the ride. It's not that prone to rumble, at least not the way it's normally played. The project box includes 2 Keith-Raper circuits, one for the bell and the other for a rim piezo (both adjustable via the two small trim pots). The rim piezo is currently not attached, it's all still work-in-progress (I need to keep everything up and running for the weekly band rehearsal, so I work in steps).
                    The ride features 2 bow piezos to enlarge the pickup area. I've wired these up in series, not parallel. I'm using a scope for all my work and could clearly see waveforms become way too unpredictable when wired up in parallel.
                    Last edited by sascha; 09-01-19, 08:49 AM.
                    gear: MarkDrum YES e-kit highly modified (low-volume trigger cymbals, 16" DIY kick, 12" DIY snare + tom 3, Goedrum HH controller), Triggera 10" splash
                    band: http://theboardmusic.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Very nice build Sascha
                      Thanks for sharing the info and the photos!

                      btw, nice sounding band you got
                      Roland TD1-KPX + TD25 module + VH11 HH

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by sascha View Post
                        I use stuff I find at my local electronics market & hardware store.

                        In the hihat picture you see the added rubber, it's there because the cymbal's got some massive low-frequency rumbling going on. I'm using a legless stand mounted to the rack via a multiclamp, so the impact transfers across the entire rack and therefore needs some dampening. Otherwise it'll be highly distracting.

                        The other picture is the ride. It's not that prone to rumble, at least not the way it's normally played. The project box includes 2 Keith-Raper circuits, one for the bell and the other for a rim piezo (both adjustable via the two small trim pots). The rim piezo is currently not attached, it's all still work-in-progress (I need to keep everything up and running for the weekly band rehearsal, so I work in steps).
                        The ride features 2 bow piezos to enlarge the pickup area. I've wired these up in series, not parallel. I'm using a scope for all my work and could clearly see waveforms become way too unpredictable when wired up in parallel.
                        Hi Sacha,

                        what kind of rubber are you using to dampen the cymbals? Both for the edge and the bottom side.

                        regards,
                        martijn
                        Roland TD-12 on a Linko acoustic kit, converted from A to E with Remo Silentstroke heads, 2Box Trigit triggers, Triggera Snare trigger, Arborea Low Volume cymbals with DIY triggers (work in progress), Superior Drummer 2, BFD3, Steinberg UR22MKII, MacBook pro

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hm, I think it was regular industry rubber (NBR). Although, in the meantime I've revised my setup. I'm now using 3mm transparent PVC (had a stash lying around) on the underside (mind you, PVC is hard to keep attached because it evaporates its softeners over time. Use Red Tape/Tesa 456.).
                          Especially on the hihat, the PVC is so much better at dampening the vibration. And low-volume cymbals vibrate a lot!

                          I keep using the NBR on my crash & ride cymbals. Don't want to turn these into hard bricks, and the triggering is good on these, only the hihat needs way more effort to get to trigger right.

                          The rims on my cymbals are wrapped with U-shaped EPDM edge-protection rubber, in my case it's 1.5mm inner diameter x 11mm width on the outside, and 3mm total height. But on the crashes, I'm using those Bill Sanders silencers (see post above) on top. EPDM is subject to wear on a DIY cymbal.
                          Last edited by sascha; 10-24-19, 02:20 AM.
                          gear: MarkDrum YES e-kit highly modified (low-volume trigger cymbals, 16" DIY kick, 12" DIY snare + tom 3, Goedrum HH controller), Triggera 10" splash
                          band: http://theboardmusic.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I was using a rubber U-shaped-profile on the edge of my cymbals to mute them. I have low volume cymbals and it does work good for dampening.

                            However, I don't like the look of the black rubber rings around my cymbals and since I needed to re-do on of my cymbals cause it was not triggering right, I started to experiment with other setups.
                            I would prefer either something transparant as for dampening on the edge of the cymbal or transparent on the underside.

                            I am currently also using 2mm transparant PVC on the bottom of one of my cymbals to dampen it. This alone does dampen enough so there is not need for a rubber ring on the edge, unless I need to add a membrane switch. I noticed that when I dampen the low-volume cymbal with PCV on the underside instead of a rubber U-profile on the edge, the stick noise of with the PVC on the underside increases.
                            So my thought is; if I am using something to dampen on the underside that is from a softer material than the PVC, it might also decrease the stick noise.

                            Since you have both NBR and PVC on the underside of the cymbals, do you notice difference in stick noise between the two?

                            I haven't tried this with normal (non-low-volume) cymbals yet. I have a few laying around so definitely will gonna try and test it out too...

                            Roland TD-12 on a Linko acoustic kit, converted from A to E with Remo Silentstroke heads, 2Box Trigit triggers, Triggera Snare trigger, Arborea Low Volume cymbals with DIY triggers (work in progress), Superior Drummer 2, BFD3, Steinberg UR22MKII, MacBook pro

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              PVC is stiffer, so you naturally hear more stick noise. But it's also heavier, therefore absorbs more kinetic energy. A flexing cymbal is hard to tame when you don't want to add something heavy and rigid. It's a trade-off, make it too stiff and immobile and away goes your 'cymbal' feel. Have too less dampening and be faced with poor triggering and lots of 'noise', doubles and ghost spikes on the sensor readouts.
                              Everything in this regard is louder than pure rubber cymbals, of course.
                              gear: MarkDrum YES e-kit highly modified (low-volume trigger cymbals, 16" DIY kick, 12" DIY snare + tom 3, Goedrum HH controller), Triggera 10" splash
                              band: http://theboardmusic.com

                              Comment

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