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DIY snare not triggering correctly on a TD-30

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  • DIY snare not triggering correctly on a TD-30

    Hi all,

    Some years ago I build a 13" snare from a shortened Tama tom and cake pan with original Roland center cone. This drum has served me very well on a TD-9, no issues whatsoever. On my TD-30 it didn't trigger as it should so I took it apart and rebuild it according to the Beatnik PS diagram. However it still doesn't trigger right. Head shots are very erratic and mixed with rim sounds. PS is all over the place. I tried every trick/setting I could find or think of but no luck.
    Just hooked it up to my TD-9 and it works flawless ... . I'm lost. Please! does anyone have any suggestions?

    D./
    E-kit:TD-30, 13"drum-tec Diabolo, 2xPD-105, 2xPD-125, KD-120, VH-11, CY-14/15-MG's + Gibraltar pedals & throne, ATH-M50x. A-kit:Pearl BLX piano black - 10"-12"-13"-16"-22"-14"steelFF - lots of Zildjian, Paiste, Ufip, Amedia, Istanbul cyms - InEar

  • #2
    Try using different pad types. I've found that a pdx8 is an excellent first starting point for my side mounted DIY pads. May give that a shot, but you might have better luck with a pdx100 and tweaking from there? Just a thought.
    ATV aDrums & aD5, Pearl Mimic Pro, TD-30 triggering Superior Drummer 3.0, Roland Handsonic HPD-20.

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    • #3
      I have a similar situation, one of my pads works with my spd 30 and yet on my TD30 it becomes sporatic as far a triggering goes. In my case I am trying a better quality piezo. 27mm for the head and 35mm for the rim on a 12 inch. I will let you know what happens from there.
      www.EDrumForum.com Going to be strictly a DIY e Drum Community

      http://www.vdrums.com/forum/album.php?albumid=198

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      • #4
        Hi,

        I assume you refer to a wiring like this http://www.toontrack.com/forum/e-dru...chael-beatnik/ ?

        From what you describe it sounds to me like (a) the head signal is too low for TD-30, while (b) the rim signal is too large or there is some electrical cross talk from rim-piezo to head-piezo. (Can you rule out mechanical cross talk at this DIY tom from piezo to piezo? What does your oscilloscope tell you?)

        To verify I'd use my soldering device, create these 5 test situations, which leaves everything in-place physically, and check again:
        1) as-is (i.e. all wires attached)
        2) desolder head-piezo wires at JACK (i.e. disconnect both wires at JACK)
        3) reconnect JACK wires and desolder at head-PIEZO
        4) reconnect head-piezo and desolder rim-piezo at JACK
        5) reconnect JACK wires and desolder at rim-PIEZO.

        This way you can evaluate impact of signal levels and wire related cross-talk (antenna effects).

        As stated earlier the selected pad type may impact as well. To try, just vary them during these 5 tests and note down results in a clear way.

        Best, Michael
        Last edited by MS-SPO; 01-26-17, 06:20 AM.
        td-30 user ;-)

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        • #5
          Thanks for the replies all.
          >Michael, yes that is the diagram I referred to. Now, would there be such a big diff in how both modules interpret the piezo signals? Could (poor) physical isolation lead to this effect? It does work absolutely without issue on the 9 (head/rim/X with proper dynamics)
          Last edited by Drummer-64; 01-26-17, 07:06 AM.
          E-kit:TD-30, 13"drum-tec Diabolo, 2xPD-105, 2xPD-125, KD-120, VH-11, CY-14/15-MG's + Gibraltar pedals & throne, ATH-M50x. A-kit:Pearl BLX piano black - 10"-12"-13"-16"-22"-14"steelFF - lots of Zildjian, Paiste, Ufip, Amedia, Istanbul cyms - InEar

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Drummer-64 View Post
            Now, would there be such a big diff in how both modules interpret the piezo signals?
            It's the way the software algorithm interprets the signals. This is especially important if you want positional sensing to work.

            For the rest, follow Michael's stepping plan.

            As for the cross talk remark in Michael's post: Roland modules rely on cross talk between head and rim piezo.

            @ Michael: I'm afraid not everybody is fortunate as us to have an osciloscope, although I don't know how I would have managed without one
            Brain: mega drum. 5 toms: DIY mesh head, side-mounted DIY triggers. Snare: 14" 682 head, DIY crossbar trigger. 2xDIY beaterless BD pedal. .Cymbals: Crash: 2x 16" brass: 2 zone. Ride: 20" brass: 2 zone. Hi-Hat: 14" 1 zone DIY Control pedal + Pearl H900 stand. + drum rack:

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Drummer-64 View Post
              Now, would there be such a big diff in how both modules interpret the piezo signals?
              Because we can't know the internals of both modules the answer can only be: yes, there can be a difference. Let me elaborate on it a little bit.

              First, there is an analog stage as input at the modules. Just for illustration purposes let's assume you supply a signal from the piezo with a maximum value of 2 Volts (just for your imagination). If it is a steep signal (rising very quickly) it may not matter whether or not the input stages of the two models have a threshold at 1 V or 2 V respectively: it will recognize both, almost at the same time as "an event", which is good. If the 2 V - signal is a bit lower for whatever reason, say 1.9 V, one unit will trigger at 1 V, while the other won't ever (as the 2 V level is never passed). If it takes some time for the signal to reach its maximum, say at 2 V, the first unit will trigger a bit earlier, while the other will do quite late, if ever. These sort of differences cause different behaviour in the analog stage.

              Technically this trigger unit can be made from analog circuits. Then it works like I just illustrated. But it can also be made purely digital, which means, the piezo signal ist turned into a digital value by a so called Analog-to-Digital-Converter (ADC). Now, ADC's are a very special breed. First, there is quantization error, as this unit has to devide a voltage range into a multiple of 2, say into 1024 voltage level segment (10-bit resolution). If it happens by chance, that the 1024-th level is just slightly above 2 V and has to be passed, it can't trigger, can't recognize the event from the piezo. And many more effects can happen here.

              To make it even worse, as Viperr wrote, once you have a digital data, teh door is open to software processing, which can be devil's favorite place to be at occasions.

              To make it even worse, we can't know if the signal processing is identical for the rim and for the non-rim piezo in any model. And just imagine what will happen to hte poor trigger detection functinalit, once you mix piyo signals in a way, which will confuse at least one model?

              As I said, as we can't know about the internal details of both modules, all this is speculations about things, that are able to happen. In otehr words, if one of the piezos is not strong enough, you may see behaviour like you described in the beginning.


              Originally posted by Drummer-64 View Post
              Could (poor) physical isolation lead to this effect?
              Yes, it can be, and no, it might not be. You have to verify, if you don't want to follow believes or assumptions ... or alternative facts ; -)


              Originally posted by Drummer-64 View Post
              It does work absolutely without issue on the 9 (head/rim/X with proper dynamics)
              You may have been lucky, see above. E.g., what if Roland changed some internal things with the analog parts or the digital chain? Or changed some internal software value during a later production batch? An indication could be to repeat your test with two other modules, e.g. from a friend. To be sure, you'd need something like 50 - 100 such friends (statistics).

              Hope this sheds some light on the situation.
              Best, Michael
              Last edited by MS-SPO; 01-27-17, 11:26 AM.
              td-30 user ;-)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Viperr View Post
                @ Michael: I'm afraid not everybody is fortunate as us to have an osciloscope, although I don't know how I would have managed without one
                Very true, Viperr, both statements ; -)

                Here, the scope can help to rule out the most obvious mistakes to make, like voltage levels, rise and fall times, crosstalk, spikes, wrong piezo polarity, short-circuits etc.
                td-30 user ;-)

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                • #9
                  Thanks, I'll plow on.
                  D./
                  E-kit:TD-30, 13"drum-tec Diabolo, 2xPD-105, 2xPD-125, KD-120, VH-11, CY-14/15-MG's + Gibraltar pedals & throne, ATH-M50x. A-kit:Pearl BLX piano black - 10"-12"-13"-16"-22"-14"steelFF - lots of Zildjian, Paiste, Ufip, Amedia, Istanbul cyms - InEar

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Drummer-64 View Post
                    On my TD-30 it didn't trigger as it should so I took it apart and rebuild it according to the Beatnik PS diagram. However it still doesn't trigger right... Just hooked it up to my TD-9 and it works flawless ... . I'm lost.
                    What are your trigger settings on both your TD-9 and TD-30? Please list ALL the trigger parameters on both modules.

                    -SD-
                    Last edited by SiliconDrummer; 01-28-17, 09:37 PM.

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                    • #11
                      do you have a picture of your setup? i had the same problem and I think i know what it is but I need to see your plate with the head piezo and cone on it to confirm. Thanks, Tom
                      www.EDrumForum.com Going to be strictly a DIY e Drum Community

                      http://www.vdrums.com/forum/album.php?albumid=198

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