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DIY 3 Zone cymbal v2

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  • #31
    I am starting a test build following that method, but am having some concerns about effectiveness when chaining multiple piezos ..
    What about phase cancellation & can it be an issue with the 3 piezos hooked up together like in this approach?

    ignatus do you have any experience in comparing the triggering when using only one piezo as opposed to chaining 3 like on the pictures?
    Also wondering if adding small diodes to kill the not-wanted negative half-wave portion of the signal will help ..
    Also wondering how a film sensor pickup would work compared to regular piezo .. yes it is much more expensive but is also very thin and so simple to stick to any surface.. I am considering ordering a sample or two to see how it works.. what do you think ?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by pumpal; 06-19-16, 07:34 AM.
    ATV aD5
    Tama MetroJam mkII A2E

    Comment


    • #32
      Hi Pumpal,

      You make some interesting points there. I've made several pads with multiple piezos, up to 6, and I've never noticed issues with triggering. Using just one also works fairly ok, but you get a large area with less sensitivity. Not much of an issue if you won't let your cymbals spin (you can put it on the opposite side to avoid a hot spot). I made these cymbals to have 360 degree triggering so I could forget worrying about them spinning and having several piezos spreads out the sensitivity. With Megadrum at least i haven't run into issues. I think the video shows pretty well that triggering is fine.

      Those piezos look interesting. I'd seen them before but they are a bit pricey, and as the round ones work ok I haven't bought any to try them out. Feel free to pioneer a new approach!

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      • #33
        Incredible job, wow. I'll stick with just modifying my shells, cause I can barely understand that haha

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        • #34
          Hi ignotus,

          I got 4 x Staggs 14" in the mail today and am starting the build

          3 clarifying questions though:

          1. When you stick the piezos to the bottom cymbal, are they (and should they be?) in contact with the top cymbal when you sandwich them together, and if not in contact, is really 1mm rubber enough space to keep them separated. Did you try to have them in contact with the upper cymbal or to even stick them to the upper cymbal instead to the bottom one ? I ordered few film piezos but as they are expensive I will also try with relgular piezos too. 35mm u used, right ?

          2. How do you stick them - shave the surface to make it even and use moment glue? Hot glue?

          3. What is the exact size of the bolts u used to keep the two parts together, are they cone head or flat head and what exact glue u used to glue them to the top part ?

          Thanks!!
          ATV aD5
          Tama MetroJam mkII A2E

          Comment


          • #35
            Hi Pumpal,

            1.- I stuck them to the surface of the bottom cymbal. I let them touch the top cymbal initially, and found that it made the triggering quite bad: I got a terrible hotspot right above them and triggering was inconsistent in general. I carved out a space the size of the piezos (I used 27 mm but I don't think 35 mm should be a problem) so they are slightly embedded. After doing this, the triggering improved drastically. If you use copper to link the piezos and just apply a small smidgen of solder, 1 mm is enough for clearance with the top cymbal.

            2.- I stuck the piezos on with double-sided tape. As I said, I did shave of an area, so they were recessed, and tried my best to make the surface they're stuck on flat, so they don't have to bend around the cymbal curvature; though I didn't make a perfect job of it, it worked out OK. The copper tape on top of them also helps to keep them in place.

            3.- The bolts and screws I used were M3 x 8 mm, flat-headed, with those spiky washers to prevent the bolts from loosening. The length turned out to be a bit tight though - there's only just enough thread coming out the other side to screw the bolt on. I'd use 10 mm if you can. I countersunk the hole a bit on the top cymbal and used two-part epoxy (Araldite brand - don't know if you can get that where you live) to hold the screws in place. I bolted the cymbals together and then applied the epoxy to the screw heads, so it dries with the screws in the right position. Just make sure it doesn't leak down and cement the cymbals together. Took about 48 hours to dry properly and is hard as a rock.

            Good luck with the build!

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            • #36
              So u applied the cement above the bolts, I see. Cool, thanks - that's some precious information! Let's see what I will be able to come up with.
              ATV aD5
              Tama MetroJam mkII A2E

              Comment


              • #37
                I don't recall if I mentioned this here but if you cut about 1cm off the edge of the bottom cymbal the final result will be much better as you can wrap the vinyl down over the edge of the top one, it makes it less likely for dust to get in the switch area and it also looks much better. There are a few tricks for getting the vinyl on so if you want tips on that when you get to it just fire away.

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                • #38
                  Ok - definitely will!
                  What I am wondering at the moment is, is there any VSTi that supports 3 zone on all cymbals and on the hh ? As I intend to be using these 14" as a crash and eventually a hh top, and for the ride I intend to be getting the 16" Staggs (if all works to expectations), it will be much simpler to make them 2 zone but then it will be nearly impossible to add the bell later .. maybe I will make them 3zone Yamaha style so that they are compatible with Verstrigger u-box anyway, but if then on no software there are samples for bell on the crash and HH then it will be worthless. What are your thoughts in that regard ?
                  ATV aD5
                  Tama MetroJam mkII A2E

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Addictive Drums supports 3 zones on hh and ride, but only 1 zone + choke on crashes, for example. Don't know about other vsts. Since I never used the bell on my acoustic crashes I only made them 2 zone. I load another instance of AD with just a couple of rides loaded to at least make the crashes 2 zone, using the bow of the rides.
                    If you think you might use them in the future I reckon it's worth it to make the third zones.

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                    • #40
                      Well, I got to here:
                      but am abandoning the project.
                      I just got the pool line ponder (1mm pvc) and also some 2mm sheet rubber (stinks unbearable !!!).
                      The stick noise is just too much - it is 1, maybe even 2 times louder then a Roland or Yamaha cymbal pad.. I must admit, the rebound felt more natural though... but if I am to cope with such level of stick noise, I'd rather go bronze ..

                      It was a fun effort though, I do not regret that I tried I also got a piece of piezo foil film and will play to see if one will be enough for the entire pad - I am thinking to cut the spacing sheet some space around where it is stuck to the bottom piece to avoid hot spot .. not sure if it will work, but I will try and report back ..
                      Last edited by pumpal; 06-30-16, 04:33 PM.
                      ATV aD5
                      Tama MetroJam mkII A2E

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        It's a shame to hear that you're abandoning it when it's almost done... What about trying a different dampening surface? I tried with 1 mm EVA foam under the rubber layer and stick noise went down drastically, though I didn't like the feel much... In the end there's a compromise between feel and noise. Could it be that you tested the noise level without any rubber spacing between the cymbals? I'm not saying the difference will be night and day, but mine, despite making a tapping noise that probably is louder than a Roland or Yamaha cymbal, make nowhere near as much noise as a dampened acoustic cymbal.

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                        • #42
                          Hmm, you are actually right .. I will search for something else for the top .. indeed I tested without the layer between them and without the carbon on top too.. the noise is not actually that much louder (I brought one CY-12 to compare head to head), but much more high-pitched .. I will search for options on this.. thanks for encouraging me Ignotus

                          Btw, regarding the epoxy gluing of the bolts, since one of them failed for me literally after the first stack/unstack and I had to re-glue it, I then though maybe using the soldering iron to melt some of the pieces left from cutting the bottom cymbal and the area around the bolts to cover them with hot plastic will work better .. then make it even with some sand paper .. that should work .. if I ever make another, I will try this ...
                          Last edited by pumpal; 06-30-16, 04:32 PM.
                          ATV aD5
                          Tama MetroJam mkII A2E

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Yeah, don't give up on it.

                            As for the epoxy, maybe it's not very good quality, or it wasn't mixed in the right proportions, or it wasn't left to dry long enough (best left for 48 hours)... because the stuff I use, when dry, is harder than the cymbal itself. If I wanted to remove the screws again I'd have to use pliers and a fair bit of force. With my last cymbal, I let some epoxy leak down past the head so it grabbed some of the threaded part of the screw. After about 12 hours I carefully unscrewed the (finger-tight) bolts and separated the cymbals while the epoxy still wasn't totally hardened in case they were starting to stick together, which they were. The screws are tough as nails.
                            In short: the epoxy should be way harder and more secure than trying to melt the cymbal plastic, which may or may not work.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by pumpal View Post
                              Well, I got to here:
                              but am abandoning the project.
                              I just got the pool line ponder (1mm pvc) and also some 2mm sheet rubber (stinks unbearable !!!).
                              The stick noise is just too much - it is 1, maybe even 2 times louder then a Roland or Yamaha cymbal pad.. I must admit, the rebound felt more natural though... but if I am to cope with such level of stick noise, I'd rather go bronze ..

                              It was a fun effort though, I do not regret that I tried I also got a piece of piezo foil film and will play to see if one will be enough for the entire pad - I am thinking to cut the spacing sheet some space around where it is stuck to the bottom piece to avoid hot spot .. not sure if it will work, but I will try and report back ..
                              Hi Pumpal,

                              Did you test it on your Roland module ?
                              I'm planning to build a DIY brass cymbal with multiple chained Piezo's (4 or 5)
                              If your tests are positive, I will likely succeed on my project :-P
                              I have a Roland TD9 module
                              Ludwig Epic, Roland Mesh-heads, DIY Cymbals, Roland TD-9, EZdrummer2 + EZX

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                              • #45
                                I recently built a new 3-zone hi hat cymbal using 3 layers of 1 mm pond liner on top and the tapping noise has gone down quite a bit. Maybe not as quiet as a Roland or Yamaha cymbal but I'm happy with it. The bow feels slightly less natural (a bit more rubbery) but then again the added weight makes it feel more like the real thing in other aspects (swing, resistance when hitting it, etc). Ah well, compromises.... The rest of the cymbals are still going strong .

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