Bass Drum Conversion

[andygee70]

Hello fellow forum members!

I just need a little confirmation on what I've read here.

To make the bass drum conversion easier, the crossbar is not necessarily needed with this part of the process. It was stated somewhere that an 'L' bracket was the only thing required, attached to the inside of the lug with a piezo stuck to it at a distance of a couple of inches away from the head. There were no replies to the post to either confirm or repost this method. No need for any foam with this method? or have I misunderstood the gist?

[AwDeOh]

You'll still want to use foam, but because the beater strikes the same place every time, you don't have positional sensing to worry about - that in itself is why some choose just to use an L-bracket on the outside. I've seen designs with cones, cylinders and even squares of foam, but it's there to dampen the direct shock to the piezo.

If you go with this kind of design, the two problems you'd have to work with (possibly, you may not have any problems at all) are getting enough output from the piezo (since it's at the edge of the skin instead of directly under the beater), and giving the skin enough support so that the beater doesn't tear through it after 5 minutes of playing.

[andygee70]

Originally Posted by AwDeOh

You'll still want to use foam, but because the beater strikes the same place every time, you don't have positional sensing to worry about - that in itself is why some choose just to use an L-bracket on the outside. I've seen designs with cones, cylinders and even squares of foam, but it's there to dampen the direct shock to the piezo.

If you go with this kind of design, the two problems you'd have to work with (possibly, you may not have any problems at all) are getting enough output from the piezo (since it's at the edge of the skin instead of directly under the beater), and giving the skin enough support so that the beater doesn't tear through it after 5 minutes of playing.

ahhh, I get you. So the suggested method is still the crossbar way then, I assume. And if it's off-centred with a crossbar, how does the skin get the support from the crossbar and cone?

[SiliconDrummer]

I have a different opinion. IMO, the cross-bar is NOT the preferred method for a kick. Roland does NOT use a cross bar on ANY of the kicks that they make. Hart Dynamics does NOT use a cross bar on any of their kicks. JMAN does NOT use a cross bar on any of his kicks, and I also chose not use a cross bar on my kick.

Hart's preferred method is the same as Roland's preferred method. That preferred method is to mount the piezo far away from the beater impact point -- near the RIM. This is also what JMAN does and it is also what I have done. It works very well and is very sensitive.

There are several reasons for this, but the main reason is that the beater impact on a kick drum is HUGE and piezo elements are very sensitive and very fragile. So, you definitely don't want to have the piezo directly under the beater impact area. Also, kick drums are usually large in diameter and that would dictate a long cross-bar to span the diameter of the drum. The longer the cross-bar, the more deflection you get at the center after impact. This deflection will create multiple triggers -- you don't want that. So, even if you use a cross bar, you want to mount the piezo closer to the edge of the drum and you don't want the beater impact to cause the cross-bar to deflect.

That is my $0.02

-SD-

[andygee70]

Originally Posted by SiliconDrummer

I have a different opinion. IMO, the cross-bar is NOT the preferred method for a kick. Roland does NOT use a cross bar on ANY of the kicks that they make. Hart Dynamics does NOT use a cross bar on any of their kicks. JMAN does NOT use a cross bar on any of his kicks, and I also chose not use a cross bar on my kick.

Hart's preferred method is the same as Roland's preferred method. That preferred method is to mount the piezo far away from the beater impact point -- near the RIM. This is also what JMAN does and it is also what I have done. It works very well and is very sensitive.

There are several reasons for this, but the main reason is that the beater impact on a kick drum is HUGE and piezo elements are very sensitive and very fragile. So, you definitely don't want to have the piezo directly under the beater impact area. Also, kick drums are usually large in diameter and that would dictate a long cross-bar to span the diameter of the drum. The longer the cross-bar, the more deflection you get at the center after impact. This deflection will create multiple triggers -- you don't want that. So, even if you use a cross bar, you want to mount the piezo closer to the edge of the drum and you don't want the beater impact to cause the cross-bar to deflect.

That is my $0.02

-SD-

Thank you SD for your $0.02!!

Can you tell me if you would also use cylindrical foam for contact on the mesh head and how do you guard against the beater going through the head? Is it as simple as getting quality multi-ply bass drum mesh head and a kick drum patch?

[SiliconDrummer]

Originally Posted by andygee70

Can you tell me if you would also use cylindrical foam for contact on the mesh head

Yes, that is what I did on my kick conversion. But, I don't think that is very critical for a kick. The density of the foam and how far it sticks above the bearing edge might be more important than the shape. Here is a link to a post on my kick conversion:
http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showpost...08&postcount=2

But, my conversion is probably overkill and I'm sure that you can take a simpler approach. A rigid L-bracket should be fine. Also, you can just use the regular "piezo on double sided foam tape" method to mount it to the L-Bracket.

... and how do you guard against the beater going through the head? Is it as simple as getting quality multi-ply bass drum mesh head and a kick drum patch?

Yes, a thick mesh head and a kick drum patch is a must. If you want, you can stuff the drum with foam like I did to absorb some of the impact and make the mesh head less "bouncy". But, that is not a requirement. It is just an optional tweak that both Roland and Hart also use. I tried with and without the foam, and I prefer it with the foam.

-SD-

[bogiesbad]

I agree with the L bracket design...I use a 35mm piezo sandwiched between discs of 1/2" Poron. Simple and effective...works great on a TD10exp. Just make sure you have 1/8" or so above the bearing edge.

[andygee70]

Originally Posted by bogiesbad

I agree with the L bracket design...I use a 35mm piezo sandwiched between discs of 1/2" Poron. Simple and effective...works great on a TD10exp. Just make sure you have 1/8" or so above the bearing edge.

I've bought all my cones from across the pond. I'm not sure where I could get poron in the UK

[fulrmr(Daniel)]

Hey Andy. I use a crossbar and it works just fine. However I will be changing to the L bracket design when I modify it. My trigger is also offset. About 3" from the edge. I bought Remo Sound Control Disks. For the Kick they come with two trays and two full disks.
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.c...ack?sku=442907

I just cut a hole for the trigger/cone to contact the Hart Dynamic Magnum Heads. Unfortunately I have not seen any 20" heads from Hart.(at least from Musicians Friend) Def use a kick patch of some sort. I'm cheap, so I use black duct tape. Seems to stick better and hold up well compared to the silver. A regular patch would be more pleasing though, I would imagine.

[andygee70]

Originally Posted by fulrmr(Daniel)

Hey Andy. I use a crossbar and it works just fine. However I will be changing to the L bracket design when I modify it. My trigger is also offset. About 3" from the edge. I bought Remo Sound Control Disks. For the Kick they come with two trays and two full disks.
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.c...ack?sku=442907

I just cut a hole for the trigger/cone to contact the Hart Dynamic Magnum Heads. Unfortunately I have not seen any 20" heads from Hart.(at least from Musicians Friend) Def use a kick patch of some sort. I'm cheap, so I use black duct tape. Seems to stick better and hold up well compared to the silver. A regular patch would be more pleasing though, I would imagine.

Hi Danny! Well, I'm gonna struggle getting those Remo foam things from the UK, a quick search on google and all the links seem to be to US stores.

Dave from Diamond Drums uses Drum-Tec heads I think, but I don't know how good they are. Someone has used T-Drum mesh heads from Thomann but I haven't had a reply as to what that formista thought of them.

[Hellfire]

The "L" bracket is probably the easiest way to go about it, but the large mesh drum head can be a bit costly. You could also try mounting a smaller drum trigger inside your bass drum. It does cost less, but it is a bit more labor intensive.

[JmanWord]

22" Kick Conversion:

I have done both L bracket (the KISS method) and Crossbar method for kick. As stated above one critical point is not to mount the piezo/foam near the batter impact area. I have changed my preference lately.... changing over all 3 of my kicks to the crossbar conversion. The crossbar method is not necessary I am really only using it so I can position my trigger exactly where I want it. Where I prefer my trigger is about half the distance between the drum rim and the beater... 5 or 6 inches from the edge on a 22" kick. With the crossbar I do not mount the crossbar in the center of the drum like toms or snare. Instead I mount it on 2 lower opposing lugs that get me the position I desire. The crossbar needs to be stable so it does not move and cause triggering problems.

Here is what I have found. On 22" Kick drums it is a little more difficult to maintain perfect triggering with the trigger right next to the edge... not difficult to get perfect triggering that way... just a little tougher to maintain it. Threshold, Scan time,Retrigger cancel settings and Mask time settings need to be set close to the factory RT10K setting on the module... and all those settings are much higher than the KD120 settings. The settings are for a trigger mounted close to the edge, further away from the impact area. What I find is if the head tension loosens from stretching(Hart heads are famous for this) the triggering performance suffers. If the foam wears in a bit, the triggering is affected and noticeable. So, periodically checking head tension and possibly even checking and adjusting the L and foam position might be required.

By mounting the trigger in a position not so close to the rim and far enough away from the beater so no piezo damage will occur I find I can come closer to the KD120 default settings on the module. My settings are still a little higher than default KD120 for all the parameters mentioned, but not nearly as high as the RT10K settings... The result for me is consistent triggering and more forgiving... head tension can be checked less frequently and the triggering is more forgiving overall.

Similar results can be obtained by extending the L bracket, a modification I now use on my original KISS method. I extend the L so the Piezo/foam is about 5" from the rim. The L needs to be sturdy/stable. Using this method I start with RT10K default parameters, but the triggering does seem to be more forgiving than the trigger closer to the rim.

That's just my own observations with my own triggering hardware, I'm sure results will vary.... but I have found over a period of more than a year that my kick triggering is more consistent and dependable.

And remember I am talking about a 22" kick drum here. There is a big difference between a drum of this size compared to a 12", 14", 16" drum. The simple L bracket method near the edge should work just fine for smaller kicks.

[fulrmr(Daniel)]

Andy, Also don't forget to check builds that are specific for your module. Good performance on builds for Alesis modules may not the work the same as for Rolands. I have also heard that certain settings and trigger positions will be discerned by the the module for peak performance. I don' have a TD-20 but Jman does.