Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hi-Fi..Analogue V's Digital

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hi-Fi..Analogue V's Digital

    First off.......I'm not trying to provoke a typical t'interweb flame wars........I'm just interested in peoples' opinion here................I figure most people interested in V Drums have an ear for music and an opinion on how music should sound ..........

    I've just got round to setting my hi-fi system up after a year or so of moving house and sorting out my home life etc.

    After a year of listening to music in the car and occasionally through my PS3 and tv surround system I'm stunned how good music can sound when properly reproduced on a decent hi-fi, but also kinda surprised as to how good old fashioned vinyl sounds.

    First impressions, after being out of touch for some time, are that CD sounds detailed and punchy, but vinyl sounds far more "musical" and engaging......my foot taps more, and I wanna continue listening and play along.

    I have to admit that I'm an old school hi-fi nut, and have always had a soft spot for vinyl, but I'm stunned and somewhat surprised to find that records (old school term) still sound more "musical".......

    I'm posting this in the hope that I will get some comments and opinions from other musos..............hi-fi is very subjective, and I have to admit to a level of bias here..........I've yet to do the cd v's vinyl comparison through my studio monitors(probably more accurate, but nowhere near as expensive or fun to listen to as my normal hi-fi speakers), but I doubt that I would change my opinion.

    This could alter my thought as to recording and e-drums in general......although it's highly unlikely I will ever get to record a real kit (as in non V-Drum or other electronica) in a decent analogue studio anyway, it's always gonna be food for thought..............

    Comments?

    Al

    Any thoughts people.........
    Roland TD-12KX + extra CY12R/C + PD8, Roland PM-30, Audio Technica ATH-M50's, Focusrite Scarlett 18i6 interface, Mackie monitors, i3/8gb laptop, Reaper, Rode microphones, various guitars, basses & keyboards ...loads of toys/no talent!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Algonquin View Post
    First off.......I'm not trying to provoke a typical t'interweb flame wars........I'm just interested in peoples' opinion here................I figure most people interested in V Drums have an ear for music and an opinion on how music should sound ..........

    I've just got round to setting my hi-fi system up after a year or so of moving house and sorting out my home life etc.

    After a year of listening to music in the car and occasionally through my PS3 and tv surround system I'm stunned how good music can sound when properly reproduced on a decent hi-fi, but also kinda surprised as to how good old fashioned vinyl sounds.

    First impressions, after being out of touch for some time, are that CD sounds detailed and punchy, but vinyl sounds far more "musical" and engaging......my foot taps more, and I wanna continue listening and play along.

    I have to admit that I'm an old school hi-fi nut, and have always had a soft spot for vinyl, but I'm stunned and somewhat surprised to find that records (old school term) still sound more "musical".......

    I'm posting this in the hope that I will get some comments and opinions from other musos..............hi-fi is very subjective, and I have to admit to a level of bias here..........I've yet to do the cd v's vinyl comparison through my studio monitors(probably more accurate, but nowhere near as expensive or fun to listen to as my normal hi-fi speakers), but I doubt that I would change my opinion.

    This could alter my thought as to recording and e-drums in general......although it's highly unlikely I will ever get to record a real kit (as in non V-Drum or other electronica) in a decent analogue studio anyway, it's always gonna be food for thought..............

    Comments?

    Al

    Any thoughts people.........
    We had that in the Neil Yound Thread.

    IMHO
    There are two things:
    Be a non esotheric hifi nut, buy studio monitors
    neutral Reproduction => digital is best thing and studio monitors Like Adam S3X-H, Geithain, B&W HiFi, Klein und Hummel Od300, new Neumann Speakers

    Colouration and creating Music => nothing beats analogue, old mostly European Mics Neumann, Schoeps, AKG, Gefell, DPA and mic Preamps Neve, API, Telefunken Valve. Old guitar Speakers are superior....i.e. JBL 120 DF, Bulldog Silver, Old PreRola Celestion (although Scumbacks are cool), old Fender Jensen....
    I do play drums only 2-3 years but I prefer old cymbals (paiste traditional and zyldjian K) and drums Slingerland, Ludwig, Rogers....

    The room has a big effect.

    Vinyl is altering/limiting a finished product...can be nice but different.

    See the Neil Yoiung Thread here....funny!
    http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.p...ght=neil+young
    Last edited by Ribot; 04-15-12, 06:04 AM.
    New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
    Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

    Comment


    • #3
      Also, member JimFiore (along with other members) shared their opinions on this in the 'Romantic Warrior' thread. --> http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.p...mantic-Warrior
      .
      .
      Greetings from Switzerland,
      - Dänoh



      "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

      http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

      Comment


      • #4
        This could alter my thought as to recording and e-drums in general......although it's highly unlikely I will ever get to record a real kit (as in non V-Drum or other electronica) in a decent analogue studio anyway, it's always gonna be food for thought..............


        I do not get it, playing E-Drums is probably the only chance listening/playing to a well tuned, high end Gretsch kit recorded n a big studio room (high ceiling) with the above mentioned mics....see the mics rail used in recording this best playing bfd2 pack.
        http://www.platinumsamples.com/ps/Ro...sQuickPack.php

        You could only copy this experience by spending 50 000 USD in outboard gear...or spending 2000 USD/day recording in such a facility....

        But yes, I often wonder what makes the Roland Module Sound fetish guys enjoy virtual generated donkey kong sounds.....and preferring their vinyl, crazy, if you ask me!

        I.E. Check the VST section in this forum.
        There is a big misunderstanding what is possible right now for little money far superior than outdated 90ties module sounding experience....for 6000 USD

        Bottleneck are the limited expressions (vs a real kit) on snare and hi hat.....sound wise......incredible
        Drummers are probably the luckiest musicians recording, as they can taking full advantage of midi without sacrificing a little bit of hi-end......
        Kai
        Last edited by Ribot; 04-15-12, 05:47 AM.
        New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
        Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

        Comment


        • #5
          In the past I've said a lot on the topic of analog-vinyl vs. digital from my position as an electrical engineer and audio designer. For the record (no pun intended) I have no problem when someone says that they prefer the sound (or experience) of vinyl over high quality digital. That's a subjective call. I only have a problem when someone says that high quality digital is less accurate than vinyl. Objective measurements indicate the opposite.
          "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency....Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....Our four...no...Amongst our weapons....Amongst our weaponry are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."
          www.dissidents.com
          www.myspace.com/jimfiore

          Comment


          • #6
            What I think most hifi-interested people can agree on is that high compression with reduced dynamics is the devil's work.
            A vinyl record without compression beats a compressed CD recording any time.

            A vinyl record compared to a good CD recording without horrible compression - now there's a more interesting question.


            Regarding speakers - I love neutral speakers hooked up to a good amp - I love my Dynaudio Focus setup - Dynaudio have a great range of lovely studio monitors too.
            (Disclaimer: I'm a Dynaudio fanboy )

            Comment


            • #7
              Dynaudio are also cool......

              But be aware your records will often sound not so good as good monitors will reveal flaws in production.

              One thing they will always deliver:
              a broader spectrum of expression and used sounds, more transparency....
              Compression can destroy but is also a sound, different feel
              I can also enjoy Guitar Wolf after listening to the Norah Jones Debut.....
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzhLjDZtnn8
              Seems to be natural compression , I would detest a hifi Guitar Wolf Record.....

              Kai
              New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
              Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

              Comment


              • #8
                Good, beneficial compression should be added in a controlled fashion in pre-production - and not just by forcing in extra loudness when mastering.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trondster View Post
                  Good, beneficial compression should be added in a controlled fashion in pre-production - and not just by forcing in extra loudness when mastering.
                  It depends on the style.......I see no problems, if the artist chooses a producer to compress heavily, his "fault", decision, his expression, it is only his business....he does not need to.....there are a lot producers who will not.....even albini or lanois....simply hire them,
                  http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...e-years-8.html

                  For me the so called hifi community are often a bunch of snobs with bad wimpy, narrow music taste (indicated in the "best album list" inside typical magazines........grp records, boring 80ties fusion, latest sting offerings, esoteric hippie trash,...there lies the problem, a stellar production does not safe a bad song or expression.....

                  Recording chamber, classical music different story.

                  Kai
                  New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
                  Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Trondster View Post
                    A vinyl record without compression beats a compressed CD recording any time.

                    A vinyl record compared to a good CD recording without horrible compression - now there's a more interesting question.
                    By "compression" are you referring to data compression or amplitude compression? Obviously, vinyl records don't have data compression so it really isn't fair to compare them to something like a 128 kbps compressed MP3. OTOH, if we're talking about amplitude compression, in practical terms there's really no such thing as an uncompressed vinyl record.

                    I will take a vinyl record over a 128 kbps MP3 (let alone 64 kbps) but I'll take uncompressed 16 bit/44.1 kHz PCM over vinyl any day and twice on days ending with "y".
                    "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency....Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....Our four...no...Amongst our weapons....Amongst our weaponry are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."
                    www.dissidents.com
                    www.myspace.com/jimfiore

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I studied mastering for a short time and vinyl is usually mastered differently so the needle doesn't jump out of the grooves. It would be hard to compare even the same recording vs cd because they would most likely be different masters.
                      Peter

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm talking about amplitude compression here - old vinyl records often sound much better than newer CD releases if the newer CD release has gotten a bad case of the loudness treatment.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Trondster View Post
                          I'm talking about amplitude compression here - old vinyl records often sound much better than newer CD releases if the newer CD release has gotten a bad case of the loudness treatment.
                          Peter makes the appropriate point here, namely that vinyl albums are compressed. It would be completely unfair to compare a vinyl disc to a CD that was remastered to further compress the dynamic range from some subjective desire to increase apparent loudness. What would be better is to compare said disc to a CD that was pressed directly from the vinyl master. From that you could hear the differences in the media themselves. I wouldn't consider that completely fair either, though, because the available dynamic range of the CD is much better than that of vinyl so you'd be unnecessarily limiting the performance of the CD (i.e., not allowing it to be as good as it could).
                          "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency....Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....Our four...no...Amongst our weapons....Amongst our weaponry are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."
                          www.dissidents.com
                          www.myspace.com/jimfiore

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Trondster View Post
                            I'm talking about amplitude compression here - old vinyl records often sound much better than newer CD releases if the newer CD release has gotten a bad case of the loudness treatment.
                            The difference is most likely the new trend of maximizing volume so a track is not quieter than any others on the radio or ipod,as opposed to vinyl vs digital.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by scd View Post
                              The difference is most likely the new trend of maximizing volume so a track is not quieter than any others on the radio or ipod,as opposed to vinyl vs digital.
                              Not quite a new trend - disk cutting engineers usually tried to get the levels as high as possible - if you get an opportunity to compare the same record (vinyl) pressed in different countries you can hear the difference. It was common for the Oz vinyl to be louder than the UK pressings in the 70s - not saying they were better, just louder.

                              With the new digital mastering standards (overall loudness rather than peak level) the playing field is levelling out (constrained) at the pro end.

                              Vinyl has a certain "warmth" courtesy of analog distortion that seems to appeal to many listeners. Hitherto CDs struggled to attain that "sound" but the new plugs are getting it closer and closer. For dynamic range and lower noise floor CDs (in theory) win.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X