Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Dedicated PC with AD finding latency

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Dedicated PC with AD finding latency

    I have a TD-3 going into a PC with AD and Mini-host. I set this up well over a year ago and used it for a few months and then got a bit derailed but am now trying to use the system again. I have an Audiophile PCI 192 card. In order to have no latency I have to have the sampling rate set at the minimum (I think 64 bits). It is an older Dell with a P4 processor and I maxed the memory out at 2 GIG. It is running Windows XP and is strictly for the VST and I am only using it for playing-no recording. Is there anything I can tweak so I can use this PC for AD and maybe play music through it for playing along with? I really like AD but getting the whole VST thing going was not at all easy and I made some poor component choices along the way.
    Any advice is greatly appreciated.
    Thanks
    Howard
    Ignorant Newb-the following is in a state of flux. TD-6/TD-3 "Stacked" modules. PD-85BK Snare, FD-7 HH Pedal/CY-8, 2 CY-8 Crash/Ride,4-Alesis RealHead Toms with Pearl Muffle Head Mesh conversion, VST-AD, Behringer headphone amp, Audiophile 192 PCI card.

  • #2
    Originally posted by challenger View Post
    ...... In order to have no latency......
    This
    does
    not
    compute.


    Something better than MIDI is needed to achieve this....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Hercules View Post
      This
      does
      not
      compute.


      Something better than MIDI is needed to achieve this....

      hahahahaha.... this made me giggle.

      Howard, mate you're never going to achieve a state of total nirvana when it come to latency. The laws of the universe state that there will always be something there.

      Even the fastest machine you could dream up to run VST's on will only be as fast as its slowest component. Computing high sample rate audio requires time.... not much but it still takes time. Even to get a machine down to an absolute, measured latency of 1-2ms is a task!

      General rule of thumb, processor power, high speed sound card, Lots'o'RAM and an ultra fast HDD will get your latency down. You have a PCI soundcard which is a great start, but the other bits have to be very quick too.
      Rob
      Building GAS as we speak!! - TD11KV. Extra Yamaha cymbals. MDS-25 rack.

      Comment


      • #4
        It has to do with the buffer size, with some soundcards a 32 buffer is possible.....the computer power and ram (above 4gig) has almost nothing to do with it. But you have to fulfil the specs the vst manufactures demands (in some cases 2 drives, one for the os, one for the samples.)
        Remember 32 bit OS systems cannot access more than 3gigs memory.....

        With a 32 buffer size and 96khz my system (which is by the way 6 years old) you will get about under 6ms. You cannot improve this value by buying a new and expensive system or mac, period!


        As long as you will use midi out and in (you mostly have to right now) you will always have 4ms (due to the roland module) and additional ms from your soundcard.

        I.E. The better the soundcard hardware and driver!!!! the lower the latency....128-256ms buffer size should be available by an mediocre ok soundcard.

        I can detect/hate latency above 8ms seconds, therefore I only use RME soundcards, as I never use onboard roland module sounds!

        Further serious and funny information on this topic
        http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.p...-latency/page3
        Kai
        Last edited by Ribot; 04-02-12, 05:33 AM.
        New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
        Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

        Comment


        • #5
          So the fastest solution would be using the module alone (as rasoo) seems to do with imported samples on his 2box, which seems to have about 4ms.
          I prefer the 2box samples over roland module sounds did not try to import samples with it.....
          The fastest module is the antique DDRUM4 with 2,4ms.

          http://www.drummerforum.de/forum/478...mmons-adt.html
          This thread is in a German forum.

          The older is not always slower!
          Kai
          Last edited by Ribot; 04-02-12, 05:27 AM.
          New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
          Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

          Comment


          • #6
            Is latency bad?
            How much is it?

            Try yourself
            http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-soundpath.htm

            6ms is 2.058 meter or 6.751969 feet distance ear <=>drumhead
            Kai
            New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
            Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ribot View Post
              http://www.drummerforum.de/forum/478...mmons-adt.html
              This thread is in a German forum.

              The older is not always slower!
              Kai
              That was a good read, Thanks Kai!
              .
              .
              Greetings from Switzerland,
              - Dänoh



              "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

              http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by hairmetal-81 View Post
                That was a good read, Thanks Kai!
                Yes it is a good read, but no one in drummerforum.de seems to know that 6ms (whole chain vst computer + module) is certainly possible with RME Cards......so much blah over there ...."I only get 12ms using vsts with my cheapo 100 Euro sound card", under 10ms is not possible blah blah blah blah and so on.....

                They are spending 5000 USD for Roland gear, measuring the drum modules with mics.....blah blah.....

                But spending a bit money for the core for music making (the soundcard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).....no, better opening a new thread with lame comments. "Tuning" (it almost never makes a difference, my experience) their systems and OS....simply stupid! Faulty bad hardware, ****ty drivers do not improve due to tuning!

                Kai
                Last edited by Ribot; 04-02-12, 05:02 AM.
                New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
                Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

                Comment


                • #9
                  A good alternative (if you have to use usb and cannot afford RME Babyface) should be the new Presonus
                  http://www.presonus.com/products/Det...x?ProductId=63
                  The test in a renowned CT magazin indicated good latency values on some pc systems......there are a lot lot of bad hardware usb implementations around.....only solution, change mainboard (different brand, model) or buy new laptop, simple as this.

                  Kai
                  New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
                  Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    WOW! great information. When I first got started I posted a lot here but all my posts were deleted when there was a hack or something like that. At that time I had the same TD-3 but wanted better sound and decided on a VST/AD. I got this somewhat older Dell PC and purchased a poor quality sound card then a USB MIDI input control. Both of these gave too much latency so, with advice form several here, I got the Audiophile 192 which I am very please with other than I have to have it set to the minimum buffer size in order to get latency that I cannot perceive. I have a friend that has a lot of PC parts etc and was asking him about another/better build for a VST so he want to know what I need to get the VST/AD to perform better than what I now have for a computer. I told him I was concerned only with using the VST for live play but I was not able to tell him what hardware specs I should be after and after reading the replies here I am still not sure. I am under the impression that the 32 bit MS OS that I will use can only address a little more than 2 GIG so what, if any, advantage is there to getting more RAM? He will put together what I need (if I can decide) very inexpensively from parts he has used and deemed to be no longer useful (he is a huge gamer) so can I impose and ask for a recommendation for CPU speed, RAM amt and other vital components. Please excuse the question about the hard drive but for a real time VST user I would think the hard drive speed wouldn't have impact on latency??? I think my PCI card is OK yes? This sounds even nuts to me but I am not looking for a studio/pro type system but maybe a system getting close to a professional caliber is required for imperceptible latency????
                    Sorry for so many ignorant question. I greatly appreciate the patience of the contributors here.
                    Thanks
                    Howard
                    Hampstead, NC
                    Ignorant Newb-the following is in a state of flux. TD-6/TD-3 "Stacked" modules. PD-85BK Snare, FD-7 HH Pedal/CY-8, 2 CY-8 Crash/Ride,4-Alesis RealHead Toms with Pearl Muffle Head Mesh conversion, VST-AD, Behringer headphone amp, Audiophile 192 PCI card.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      No problem,

                      I do not have addictive drums.....do not know the specs

                      I had a similar built soundcard the Terratec 24/96, your card is ok.....in the above mentioned German Thread someone uses your Audiophile and succeeds to get 9ms (sound card with roland module).....this is faster than almost every other (even very expensive) firewire and usb interface (besides RME) on the market and for most people sufficient.

                      As mentioned I notice latency above 8ms, so for me it is worth to buy RME AIO. The AIO or Babyface have extremely punchy headphones out.....

                      As long as you can use 32ms buffer there is nothing to make the performance better.....most ssd do not function properly with old mainboards, I added a ssd to my system and improved the loading speed of the samples (when BFD2 is preparing to be ready) by half the time (15 seconds with SSD) (my mainboard is only first sata version), with a new mainboard the should be even possible to 8seconds) to get BFD2 ready (Platinum Sample Pack Gretsch Legend Kit, highest resolution.)

                      You could try to get the predecessor AIO the RME 9632, which will perform almost the same.....I am not shure if there are W7 drivers.....the card is only pci not pci-express.

                      As mentioned...you will only need to invest 200-300 Euro in PC Hardware and 300-500 Euro (RME Cards) to get the best latency possible (a bit under 6ms soundcard and modul) using VSTs, more money is absolutely not necessary.....you only need more processing power and memory if you will use other vst like amplitube, brutal native reverbs, or other vst instances) parallel to using drum vsts.

                      I would recommend mainboards from Asus or Gigabyte, Geil memory, Enermaxx Power suplies and no ****ty gaming cards....


                      Another way to probably cut latency (using vsts) is to use drum modules like yamahas flagship or probably the new TD30 which can be connected directly via usb to the computer.....when they have implemented good software usb driver (I do not know this, did not try these and did not measured the outcome) a value under 6ms should be realistic, but there is (seems) no internet knowledge available on this topic.


                      Third possibility (probably fastest way) using drum to midi trigger software, i.e. connecting the pads dirrectly to a multichannel soundcard (RME AIO with added lightpipe preamps)......will try when I have enough time....but (right now) not possible to use the VH11 and VH12 Roland Hihats, so not so interesting for me.

                      Kai
                      Last edited by Ribot; 04-03-12, 02:10 AM.
                      New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
                      Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To make it clear.

                        With your system it is possible to get 9ms (whole drumming chain)....which is ok....it will not improve by faster processor power and more ram, faster drives like ssd will make the booting time and changing kit pieces faster (you will need a new mainboard to make full benefit from the latest ssd.

                        Improve latency, only way to buy a better soundcard (RME), or/and omitting drum module using software triggers like http://www.etrigger.net/ I would definitely try this, as you get positional sensing without TD12 and TD11.

                        More computer power is mostly for jerks who are eating millions of vitamin c products (apples ), hoping the body will capture or save them.....no, the body is getting rid of these (unnecessary) instantly through the back-door, no healing!

                        IMHO Latency is no problem using RME (2meter distance ear-drumhead), other things like better hihat implementation and more dynamics and more drum trigger zones are more important.

                        Kai
                        P.S. But money burning can be cool
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5mNzOtm24I
                        Last edited by Ribot; 04-03-12, 04:02 AM.
                        New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
                        Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I will buy a new system (Asus with Intel I5) to make a change to a 64bit w7 system, as I want to access more ram and take full advantage of the new samsung 830 ssd drives.

                          UAD2 will hopefully provide next month 64bit drivers for their cards, this is the only reason I did not change my system, as I use the UAD2 for mixing purpose a lot.

                          My system gets too weak when I play/record with other musicians live into my computer, i.e. using bfd2 and 2 instances of Amplitube (Bass and guitar) with Redwirez impulse cabinets simultaneously ...the new system will handle this better.
                          The loading of the system and bfd2 startup will become 3 times faster (due to ssd sata drives. I will not get less latency

                          Advice:
                          If you buy ssd drives be careful not to buy something with sandforce controllers, there seem to be problems

                          If I would only play bfd2 alone, there would be no reason to buy a new system!

                          Kai
                          Last edited by Ribot; 04-03-12, 06:42 AM.
                          New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
                          Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To make it clear.

                            With your system it is possible to get 9ms (whole drumming chain)....which is ok....it will not improve by faster processor power and more ram, faster drives like ssd will make the booting time and changing kit pieces faster (you will need a new mainboard to make full benefit from the latest ssd.

                            Improve latency, only way to buy a better soundcard (RME), or/and omitting drum module using software triggers like http://www.etrigger.net/ I would definitely try this, as you get positional sensing without TD12 and TD11.
                            OK-Given this great, albeit a bit over my head, information it seems as if what I've got is about what I need and that if I can get acceptable latencey at at 64 buffer I am fine. This is, of course, for simply playing real time with no recording needs yes??
                            The PCI cards you mentioned are $500.00 roughly and are not indicated for my use. I did see that there are 2 Audiophile models from M-Audio. The one I have is the 192 and the other is 2496. It looks like the 192 is a better card for my application but perhaps there is something the 2496 has that I am missing. It only has S/PDF (what ever that is) and MIDI out and I need the 1/4" out so my feeling is that the 2496 is not a good choice.
                            Are there services in the OS or modules in AD that could be stopped to improve performance? It would be very nice to be able to have AD running and have the PC be able to play music but I imagine this would bog down the processor to the point where latency would rear it's ugly head.

                            EDIT:
                            I went to the site for etrigger.net but it struck me as sort of a ghost town?? Maybe not enough interest in the product? Also it appeared to me that this was a software application that would require high $ PC hardware???
                            Thanks a ton.
                            Howard
                            Last edited by challenger; 04-03-12, 09:14 PM. Reason: added text
                            Ignorant Newb-the following is in a state of flux. TD-6/TD-3 "Stacked" modules. PD-85BK Snare, FD-7 HH Pedal/CY-8, 2 CY-8 Crash/Ride,4-Alesis RealHead Toms with Pearl Muffle Head Mesh conversion, VST-AD, Behringer headphone amp, Audiophile 192 PCI card.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OK-Given this great, albeit a bit over my head, information it seems as if what I've got is about what I need and that if I can get acceptable latency at at 64 buffer I am fine. This is, of course, for simply playing real time with no recording needs yes??
                              Yes, you can even record with some other instances of vsts simultaneously , it depends which and how much, only there computer power and memory is important..........your latency is probably 9ms, which is quite good, compare it with the module Roland sounds alone which is 4ms....if their is no feeling difference for you it is fine..........

                              The PCI cards you mentioned are $500.00 roughly and are not indicated for my use.
                              The older RME 9632 is often under 200 Euro used http://www.ebay.de/itm/RME-Hammerfal...item231b7ed2cf
                              (350 Euro new) in Ebay! Both should be fitting in ever PC or Mac with PCI (9632) or pci-express (AIO) slots. They will make 32 buffer playing possible with 6ms latency.


                              I did see that there are 2 Audiophile models from M-Audio. The one I have is the 192 and the other is 2496. It looks like the 192 is a better card for my application but perhaps there is something the 2496 has that I am missing. It only has S/PDF (what ever that is) and MIDI out and I need the 1/4" out so my feeling is that the 2496 is not a good choice.
                              Are there services in the OS or modules in AD that could be stopped to improve performance?

                              Your card is ok, do not know these cards, they probably wont differ much latency wise, as mostly similar drivers are used.
                              Probably, ask Frankzappa or read his threads on similar topics in this forum, but they will not improve latency much. Often network, automated indexing, corny transparent animated windows interface, and anti virus activities affect the system......there are tons of optimizing computers thread online, mostly useless imho. Bad

                              It would be very nice to be able to have AD running and have the PC be able to play music but I imagine this would bog down the processor to the point where latency would rear it's ugly head.

                              No, little effect, this will work even on 10 year old systems no problem, sometimes the software mixer of a sound card will make it difficult, if so, use a sequenzer and import the music file you will jam to and use ad inside the sequenzer. RME Cards have the opportunity to use a superior mixer on their own, total mix. I strongly recommend recording yourself (you are only generating midi, you can instantly listen and see! (midi note placement an the grid) your performance, see the backing thread here. This the main reason, besides producing, using vdrums.
                              http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.p...-the-same-time


                              EDIT:
                              I went to the site for etrigger.net but it struck me as sort of a ghost town?? Maybe not enough interest in the product? Also it appeared to me that this was a software application that would require high $ PC hardware???
                              My fault, http://www.audiofront.net/ should be working.....see this thread, this is a new, experimental method.....do not hurt yourself, I did not try it myself.....this will be the future.....
                              http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.p...released/page3
                              Last edited by Ribot; 04-04-12, 05:41 AM.
                              New system: I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, W7, 64 Bit, G-Skill 16 Gig Ram, 2 Samsung SSD, Lian Li rack enclosure, Enermaxx power supply.
                              Old system (the same! latency with RME AIO), TD12, Drum Tec pads, BFD2, RME AIO, Asus P5B using XP, UAD Quad, Platinum Samples: Jim Scott, Baressi, Andy Johns, Taiko, Gretsch Kit, 8bit Kit, Percussion, XLF, Modern Drummer Snares, Deluxe, Yamaha Oak, Absolute, BFD Snares, Battery, Reaper, Cubase, Kontakt 5, Amplitube, Redwirez

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X